Um... the Delegate ALREADY answers to the voters, just as any legally elected position. If the Delegate isnt doing what you think they should, start a recall.

I dont understand why we'd elect a Delegate to handle the WA, then force them to answer to a cabinet minister. The easier way to get the delegate to vote a specific way would be to just codify that they must vote with the higher percentage of voting WA's in the region.

Jay already said this, but the Delegate wouldn't answer to any kind of Cabinet minister. It's just binding them to the decision of the OWL voters, who in fact are the voting WA nations (plus SPSF members) you're proposing to make the Delegate follow.

But of course a vote may swing after OWL voting is closed, that's why we currently have a provision in our internal procedure saying that the Delegate should change their vote when the WA's voting period on a resolution is ending and the Delegate would go against the regional vote. It might be worth to include something to that effect in this bill.

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Why don’t we make the Delegate a cabinet member in charge of the WA branch? That would solve a lot of problems with this proposal.

TSP specifically separated the Delegate from the Cabinet--I don't think we should be inserting the Delegate back into it. I would rather have a Delegate who's inexperienced in WA but a safe figurehead, than have us shift to trying to find someone who's both safe and would be good at managing a WA ministry (and inevitably sacrifice either safety and competency in WA).

I have been things

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What's more, the proposed bill is basically legislating what we have been doing since creating the OWL. If we're gonna use the argument that this will "give a very small number of active nations a lot of power", I may as well ask where that argument is when the Assembly, a group of 50–100 people, makes decisions on the behalf of the whole region. There is nothing in this bill that gives some sort of almighty power to a small cabal. Anyone with a WA nation in TSP or serving in the SPSF would have the right to cast a vote but a number of those people choose not to exercise that right.

Have we met? I actually agree very much with that assessment, but see the Assembly's role as a necessary evil for democratic governance. 
 

Um... the Delegate ALREADY answers to the voters, just as any legally elected position. If the Delegate isnt doing what you think they should, start a recall.

I dont understand why we'd elect a Delegate to handle the WA, then force them to answer to a cabinet minister. The easier way to get the delegate to vote a specific way would be to just codify that they must vote with the higher percentage of voting WA's in the region.

Jay already said this, but the Delegate wouldn't answer to any kind of Cabinet minister. It's just binding them to the decision of the OWL voters, who in fact are the voting WA nations (plus SPSF members) you're proposing to make the Delegate follow.

But of course a vote may swing after OWL voting is closed, that's why we currently have a provision in our internal procedure saying that the Delegate should change their vote when the WA's voting period on a resolution is ending and the Delegate would go against the regional vote. It might be worth to include something to that effect in this bill.

And, I generally agree with this latter statement. But what happens if the OWL is opposite the rest of the region when the vote closes? Would the delegate still be require to vote with OWL rather than the rest of the region?

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

Reply

Um... the Delegate ALREADY answers to the voters, just as any legally elected position. If the Delegate isnt doing what you think they should, start a recall.

I dont understand why we'd elect a Delegate to handle the WA, then force them to answer to a cabinet minister. The easier way to get the delegate to vote a specific way would be to just codify that they must vote with the higher percentage of voting WA's in the region.

Jay already said this, but the Delegate wouldn't answer to any kind of Cabinet minister. It's just binding them to the decision of the OWL voters, who in fact are the voting WA nations (plus SPSF members) you're proposing to make the Delegate follow.

But of course a vote may swing after OWL voting is closed, that's why we currently have a provision in our internal procedure saying that the Delegate should change their vote when the WA's voting period on a resolution is ending and the Delegate would go against the regional vote. It might be worth to include something to that effect in this bill.

"(1) The Delegate shall cast their vote on proposed World Assembly resolutions according to voting recommendations issued by the Ministry of World Assembly Legislation."
Sounds quite like the delegate is being forced to vote how the MoWA dictates.

At the end of the day, the delegate votes with the region, not the cabinet. Id very much like to keep it that way.

"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011

One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels 
The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium

POSITIONS! POSITIONS, EVERYONE!!

TSP Forum & Discord Mod (4/19-Present)
Niagara Founder (2018-Present)

TSP MoRA (6/19-10/19)
TSP Asso. Justice (4/19-3/20)
TSP Deputy CoA (8/18 - 4/19)
TSP CSS (2/14-10/14)
TSP High Court Justice (4/14 - 5/14)
TSP CoA (12/13 - 3/14)
TSP Vice Delegate (8/13 - 12/13)
TSP MoS (9/12 - 12/12)
TSP MoFA (5/12 - 9/12)
TSP Forum Admin (2014)
TSP Craziest (12/12 - 3/13 -- 8/13 - 10/14 -- 2/15 - 6/17 -- 2/18 - 6/19)
Former Founder of Richmond
Former something in Europia
Former something in Balder

Quotes

5:19PM, 3/25/12
Hileville - LR and Rebel-topia are going to break the forum. 103 posts between the two of them so far today
LadyRebels - Yes we are implementing our evil plan to take over, just wanted ya'll to know that

---

[1:22 PM] Rebeltopia: *beats up the Polandar Bear*
[1:22 PM] Polandar Bear: :dizzy_face:
[1:23 PM] Polandar Bear: I'm endangered!
[1:23 PM] Rebeltopia: Endangered of being beated up!
[1:23 PM] Polander Bear: "Beated up" - Rebeltopia, 2018

---

[6:09 PM] Seraph: Who knew ORCS could be so informative?
[6:10 PM] Nakari: ORCS is truly ORChestral to our understanding of law.
[6:11 PM] Seraph: It's the ORCSue of all our legal knowledge.
[6:11 PM] Nakari: its magical. must have been created with sORCSery.

---

Nakarisaurus: islands are you just jealous of the boots
Roavin: islands is jealous of the entire package
Satan: ^ this
Islands of Unakarity: Im jealous of the wife, and that mora election a while back
Roavin: punnuendo both intended and not intended

Reply

Jay already said this, but the Delegate wouldn't answer to any kind of Cabinet minister. It's just binding them to the decision of the OWL voters, who in fact are the voting WA nations (plus SPSF members) you're proposing to make the Delegate follow.

But of course a vote may swing after OWL voting is closed, that's why we currently have a provision in our internal procedure saying that the Delegate should change their vote when the WA's voting period on a resolution is ending and the Delegate would go against the regional vote. It might be worth to include something to that effect in this bill.

"(1) The Delegate shall cast their vote on proposed World Assembly resolutions according to voting recommendations issued by the Ministry of World Assembly Legislation."
Sounds quite like the delegate is being forced to vote how the MoWA dictates.

At the end of the day, the delegate votes with the region, not the cabinet. Id very much like to keep it that way.

The sound of that might be a bit misleading ‒ the Ministry is not the Minister; the Ministry would issue its voting recommendations like it has for over half a year now: We hold a preliminary vote where every WA and SPSF nation can decide what the initial stance will be; the Delegate casts an early vote as soon as the resolution reaches the WA voting floor according to this stance, thus making sure that what South Pacificans decided on initially gets a headstart on the floor; and ultimately, at the conclusion of the WA voting, the Delegate switches their vote, should it be against the region's final overall vote. Nothing in that procedure is going to change.

But I agree with you that we should explicitly include this provision requiring the Delegate to swing their ultimate vote on the WA floor to the region's if they would conflict nearing the conclusion of the WA's voting.

World Assembly Act

An act to define the World Assembly procedures of the Coalition of the South Pacific

...

3. Voting

(1) Voting on proposed World Assembly resolutions shall begin within 24 hours of their submission, with the voting period ending once voting starts in the World Assembly.

I have to vehemently protest against this part. Micro-managing something that specific in regional law instead of internal procedure guidelines really isn't necessary. There's a constant flow of horribly written proposals being submitted to the WA, and opening a vote on every single one of them within 24 hours would lead to an unmanageable pile of OWL votes on bad proposals that wouldn't ever reach the WA voting floor ‒ I'm absolutely positive it would cost me and any of the senior staff, who are tasked with opening and closing votes, our sanity.

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The sound of that might be a bit misleading ‒ the Ministry is not the Minister; the Ministry would issue its voting recommendations like it has for over half a year now: We hold a preliminary vote where every WA and SPSF nation can decide what the initial stance will be; the Delegate casts an early vote as soon as the resolution reaches the WA voting floor according to this stance, thus making sure that what South Pacificans decided on initially gets a headstart on the floor; and ultimately, at the conclusion of the WA voting, the Delegate switches their vote, should it be against the region's final overall vote. Nothing in that procedure is going to change.

This is ridiculous. This proposal has no real point other than trying to force another body into an already overstuffed cabinet. Why does OWL need to be a ministry?
I'll answer my own question; it doesnt. And it shouldnt. There is absolutely no need.

"...if you're normal, the crowd will accept you. But if you're deranged, the crowd will make you their leader." - Christopher Titus
Deranged in NS since 2011

One and ONLY minion of LadyRebels 
The OUTRAGEOUS CRAZY other half of LadyElysium

POSITIONS! POSITIONS, EVERYONE!!

TSP Forum & Discord Mod (4/19-Present)
Niagara Founder (2018-Present)

TSP MoRA (6/19-10/19)
TSP Asso. Justice (4/19-3/20)
TSP Deputy CoA (8/18 - 4/19)
TSP CSS (2/14-10/14)
TSP High Court Justice (4/14 - 5/14)
TSP CoA (12/13 - 3/14)
TSP Vice Delegate (8/13 - 12/13)
TSP MoS (9/12 - 12/12)
TSP MoFA (5/12 - 9/12)
TSP Forum Admin (2014)
TSP Craziest (12/12 - 3/13 -- 8/13 - 10/14 -- 2/15 - 6/17 -- 2/18 - 6/19)
Former Founder of Richmond
Former something in Europia
Former something in Balder

Quotes

5:19PM, 3/25/12
Hileville - LR and Rebel-topia are going to break the forum. 103 posts between the two of them so far today
LadyRebels - Yes we are implementing our evil plan to take over, just wanted ya'll to know that

---

[1:22 PM] Rebeltopia: *beats up the Polandar Bear*
[1:22 PM] Polandar Bear: :dizzy_face:
[1:23 PM] Polandar Bear: I'm endangered!
[1:23 PM] Rebeltopia: Endangered of being beated up!
[1:23 PM] Polander Bear: "Beated up" - Rebeltopia, 2018

---

[6:09 PM] Seraph: Who knew ORCS could be so informative?
[6:10 PM] Nakari: ORCS is truly ORChestral to our understanding of law.
[6:11 PM] Seraph: It's the ORCSue of all our legal knowledge.
[6:11 PM] Nakari: its magical. must have been created with sORCSery.

---

Nakarisaurus: islands are you just jealous of the boots
Roavin: islands is jealous of the entire package
Satan: ^ this
Islands of Unakarity: Im jealous of the wife, and that mora election a while back
Roavin: punnuendo both intended and not intended

Reply

It perhaps doesn't need to be a ministry yet, but if we want it to remain a part of how TSP does business, I believe it's best legislated for and, in the interest of fairness with respect to the size of role it will play, either promote it to a ministry or demote most of the other ministries to mere offices. There's no reason for this not to be a ministry in the long-term if we're serious about being a region with WA Engagement.

To answer earlier comments about what the point of having an elected minister to do a job the Delegate has powers for... Well, for a start that's true of all RO positions, so it's not like there isn't precedent. Secondly, whilst the Delegate may be mechanically the WA Delegate, I haven't seen us ever elect a delegate on this basis. We don't elect the Delegate to handle the WA, it's just something that mechanically they are able to do and we have tended to have the most minor expectation that it might get done to some bog standard level. At best, we've had delegates propose exactly this: the beginnings of a WA ministry, because those Delegates didn't believe that Delegates should be the ones actually running it. Many of our Delegates have been decidedly not the kind of people we would actually elect to handle WA matters if it weren't tied to the role already. We elected them for other significant reasons instead - most notably trustworthiness with the big red buttons of the game.

OWL works because it involves people who actually care about and know about the WA and so are able to use their skill and put their effort in to make it work. That's why the Delegate should follow their lead - they are the WA-engaged players and, once elected they would be elected specifically for that purpose, in complete contrast to the Delegate, who certainly never has been during my time in this region.

As far as I'm concerned the only valid argument to have right now is whether or not OWL is ready to become a ministry, not whether or not it ever should. To this point, I simply don't know enough about the size of the OWL team and their activity to make a strong judgement, but like others have said, no decision of the Assembly is irreversible, so even if it isn't ready, it's hardly the end of the world.

EDIT: Fixed all the typos I couldn't be bothered to deal with at 2AM.

Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond!

Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi.

Salma 145:8

translate

The LORD is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love.
Psalm 145: 8

(This post was last modified: 01-31-2021, 07:58 AM by Seraph.)

Reply

It perhaps doesn't need to be a ministry yet, but if we want it to remain a part of how TSP doors business, I believe it's best legislated for and, in the interest of fairness with respect to the size of role of will play, is either promote it to a ministry or demote most of the other ministries to mere offices. There's no reason for this not to be a ministry in the long-term if we're series about being a region with WA Engagement.

To answer earlier comments about what the point of having an elected minister to do a job the Delegate has powers for... Well, for a start that's true of all RO positions, so it's not like there isn't precedent. Secondly, whilst the Delegate may be mechanically the WA Delegate, I haven't seen us ever elect a delegate on this basis. We don't elect the Delegate to handle the WA, it's just something that mechanically they are able to do and we have tended to have the most minor expectation that it might get done to some bog standard level. At best, we've had delegates purpose exactly this: the beginnings of a WA ministry, because those Delegates didn't believe that Delegates should be the ones actually running it. Many of our Delegates have been decidedly not the kind of people we would actually elect to handle WA matters if it weren't tied to the role already. We elected them for other significant reasons instead - most notably trustworthiness with the big red buttons of the game.

OWL works because it involves people who actually care about and know about the WA and so are able to use their skill and put their effort in to make it work. That's why the Delegate should follow their lead - they are the WA-engaged players and, once elected they would be elected specifically for that purpose, in complete contrast to the Delegate, who certainly never has been during my time in this region.

As far as I'm concerned the only valid argument to have right now is whether or not OWL is ready to become a ministry, not whether or not it ever should. To this point, I simply don't know enough about the size of the OWL team and their activity to make a strong judgement, but like others have said, no decision of the Assembly is irreversible, so even if it isn't ready, it's hardly the end of the world.

So, there's an inherent difference between having ROs who can do something and creating a position that requires the delegate to do something. These are apples and oranges because the delegate cannot give the power away.

Second, while delegates haven't been involved in WA to large extent, it is something that has a direct hand to a sizable chunk of the region. And, while I wasn't active in the WA, when I campaigned against Tim for delegate, I campaigned on the fact that I would support WA proposals that had the most support from the region.

For me, the biggest issue remains that by moving this offsite to the people who are "active" in it, we're giving that handful of people active in OWL over the 700+ members of the region. Unlike the rest of the offsite government which most members of the region can choose to ignore, this would have a direct impact on every WA nation in the TSP. 

I don't have a problem if we want to promote this to a Cabinet position, but I don't think it should dictate the way the delegate votes because the delegate has other charges outside of the offsite community.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

Reply

Do we have any idea about how those who aren't a part of the Forum feel about OWL? 

Most who don't participate here, do they even know about it?

Can we find out this info before going full throttle on if now is the right time for this. 


On top of that - IF IT IS proposed that this is the right time, I suggest getting things ready for the June elections which gives them 4 months to cover all of their bases. The OWL Secretary is already part of the Cabinet area so it isn't like much will change there.

This is Penguin!!
Nothing Gold Can Stay
Penguins shall one day rule the pie!
And by "pie", I mean "World"!!
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I have done a lot of things in the Region in my History.
There's a list somewhere if you wanna go looking. 

Reply

For me, the biggest issue remains that by moving this offsite to the people who are "active" in it, we're giving that handful of people active in OWL over the 700+ members of the region. Unlike the rest of the offsite government which most members of the region can choose to ignore, this would have a direct impact on every WA nation in the TSP. 

OWL currently runs on-site, through a dedicated embassy region. Any WA nation in TSP, as well as any non-WA nation certified to being in SPSF, may vote.

Reply