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I'm not reopening the debate as I really don't care. I'm just saying, that properly done, the debate never would have happened. And we're being hosted by a service that was paid for for another purpose and we're using someone's dime. I'm just saying that where I sit, damage is done (right or wrong) and trust at this point comes from showing, not saying,
When we first split from IPB, I was asked by a few people to host the new forums, either at my datacenter, my house, or another host and become the root. I declined every request, saying "I don't want to be in charge" and still feel that way. Been there, done that and know what your going thru, and there is no way invented yet to stop the battles between Admins and community. It exists on all of them.
I'm with QD about the dangers of having someone spend money on keeping this running.
However, the alternative the what I proposed here would be to be scrambling when the root admin gets sick and tired of doing it and pulls the plug. We've had this happen. And/or having the rug pulled out from under the admin team when the root doesn't like it. We've had this happen as well. I'd sooner us have a structured and communal way to do this rather having these major — and unpredictable — fiascos we've had.
-tsunamy
[forum admin]
This certainly looks good!
However, I'm still unsure about the admin recall thing.
RandomGuy199
Representative of the Federal Republic of Karnetvor Resident Venezuelan/Lampshade Bar & Grill Manager- The South Pacific Soldier, South Pacific Special Forces "You're talkin' to the Rolex wearin', diamond ring wearin', kiss stealin', wheelin' n' dealin', limousine ridin', jet flyin', son of a gun, and I'm having a hard time keeping these alligators down!" "The Nature Boy" Ric Flair
(04-28-2016, 09:10 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: I'd sooner us have a structured and communal way to do this rather having these major — and unpredictable — fiascos we've had. Allowing the Delegate and PM to team up to kick out the root seems to be disaster waiting to happen, though. I don't think we can really write a law that will prevent these things from happening, or make the transition smoother. Admins going rogue will always be disruptive. It looks more like a cultural than a legal/process problem. As for the recalls, I'm pretty much against any form of this. Nobody should be allowed to abuse the political process to kick out a temporarily unpopular admin. It's just not right and it's not good for the community long term. Also, the way it's written, anybody who has a forum account gets to vote, and that includes drama tourists.
I agree with Sandaoguo here. The root is the root and you cant just decide to install a new one. If I was paying for an account where my payment and personal info was available in my profile, I'm not turning that account over to any one for any reason. And there are only a few of use that can handle root chores. Goes way beyond clicking a cPanel icon labeled "Install myBB". As I said, the person who owns/pays for the account should be the root for backups and forum structure and fellow admins should be people they can trust.
Moderation and some flag changing might be "legislated".
One quick thing here Tsu, you should allow for some way to request a leave of absence from the Assembally.
Above all else, I hope to be a decent person.
Has Been What's Next? CoA: August 2016-January 2017
Minister of Foreign Affairs: October 2019-June 2020, October 2020- February 2021
(04-28-2016, 11:02 PM)sandaoguo Wrote:(04-28-2016, 09:10 PM)Tsunamy Wrote: I'd sooner us have a structured and communal way to do this rather having these major — and unpredictable — fiascos we've had. The idea behind that was giving someone the power to choose an administrator if the forum moves. Not to kick out the root admin. Escade didn't legally have the power to install you or me as admins, it was done out of necessity, not out of legal authority. It's a mechanism for responsibility, Glen. We've had these discussions among ourselves, but the admin team needs to be responsible to SOMEONE. This circular logic of admins disciplining admins and deciding when and how admins can do what they do isn't right and in seriously sowing seeds of discontent. The writing to allow all users to have a say was to address discussions admins have had where groups such as the RP'ers should have a say, but might not be involved in the government. (04-28-2016, 11:24 PM)QuietDad Wrote: I agree with Sandaoguo here. The root is the root and you cant just decide to install a new one. If I was paying for an account where my payment and personal info was available in my profile, I'm not turning that account over to any one for any reason. And there are only a few of use that can handle root chores. Goes way beyond clicking a cPanel icon labeled "Install myBB". As I said, the person who owns/pays for the account should be the root for backups and forum structure and fellow admins should be people they can trust. Again, the root selection is only in cases where the forums are moved or a new root is needed. I imagine it would require new forums, but again, we currently don't have any legal authority to do this.
-tsunamy
[forum admin]
(04-29-2016, 08:38 AM)Tsunamy Wrote: It's a mechanism for responsibility, Glen. We've had these discussions among ourselves, but the admin team needs to be responsible to SOMEONE. This circular logic of admins disciplining admins and deciding when and how admins can do what they do isn't right and in seriously sowing seeds of discontent. The answer to this isn't to introduce more chaos. Voting isn't the automatic or best way to introduce 'responsibility.' It's probably the worst in this scenario. Frankly, just because a group of players doesn't like an admin doesn't mean that admin should be kicked out. They can learn to live with somebody they don't like. Political popularity is fleeting and turns on a dime in this game. Subjecting admins to politics is the problem, not the solution. If an admin is actually corrupt and abusing their power, that can be proven in court.
The popular opinion of admins and moderators is very susceptible to anecdotal fallacies and hasty generalizations - this is "generally true" across internet forums. People remember when an admin or mod did something bad, but it's not really visible or remembered if something good was done; therefore the view is quickly skewed negatively, and only very slowly (if at all) moves toward the positive. There are many other positions in society this applies to as well - fire fighters, police offices, doctors, etc.
The admin team does need to be responsible to someone - I absolutely agree. I think of it like this: The admins are contractors of the TSP government; not involved in the politics, but tasked by the government with upholding certain necessities of the government. I see the admins and moderators to be responsible to the Coalition proper, and their role should not be empowered to go beyond that purpose. In RL, when a contractor doesn't do their job, they are taken to court to imbue proper justice on their actions towards the acquirer. The word "justice" on its own implies responsibility of the courts (though I do recognize the irony that this sentence is fallacious rhetoric  ). Due process, by its very nature, works to uncover evidence from both parties (therefore avoiding hasty generalizations), and concerns itself with that full set of information only (avoiding anecdotal fallacies). The approach through a legislature doesn't have these mechanisms, because the purpose is different.TL;DR: Have admin appeals through the courts instead of the legislature, thereby avoiding normal populist fallacies without sacrificing accountability. ![[Image: XXPV74Y.png?1]](https://i.imgur.com/XXPV74Y.png?1)
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