Moving to an appointment-based Cabinet |
(07-19-2022, 03:25 PM)im_a_waffle1 Wrote: This is exactly same thing that we do right now. We do none of this now. The PM is just a coordinating figure in the Cabinet. Giving power to the PM would make regular reports and questions concerning progress to the PM's set agenda naturally consistent (hence why I just wanted to codify it, as I can see already that it'll become a common procedure). We don't discuss why 'x' has failed, we don't have a criteria by which a PM's term can objectively be judged. Instead it's just a vague assessment. This way, you have criteria, set by the PM themselves, which if aren't met lead to discussion on why it hasn't been met. It allows, to paraphrase myself, a natural progression of the Coalition towards efficiency. Still, I want to see suggestions on how the WA would (or even should) hold the PM accountable and by which mechanisms. The Orange Records | Viliakmon (Pacifica) | NationStates Account Main | Discord: genericsequencealias#0990
(07-19-2022, 06:39 PM)The Allied States of Bistritza Wrote: Still, I want to see suggestions on how the WA would (or even should) hold the PM accountable and by which mechanisms. What does the WA have to do with the Prime Minister? Former Delegate of the South Pacific
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(07-19-2022, 06:39 PM)The Allied States of Bistritza Wrote:(07-19-2022, 03:25 PM)im_a_waffle1 Wrote: This is exactly same thing that we do right now. It appears that what I referenced is not codified into law, but we do it anyways. Or at least, I know we did it 2 terms ago and I am pretty sure it was done for some of the last term as well. Your issue is that you haven't been here long enough to see a cabinet that consistently did it. While I do agree with codifying that the cabinet should do that, I disagree with mandating what should be in people's campaigns. If they don't put things that satisfy the voters, then they don't get elected. Also what does the WA have to do with anything? "After he realizes this newfound power of his to override the hopes and dreams of republicans, he puts all of the united provinces under his control."
one time minister of culture
One of the assumed benefit of this model is an increase in synergy between the ministers and the PM. Can supporters of this model give me a couple of examples on how the current way of doing it limits the synergy between PM and ministers? As far as I understand, we don’t really have any problem related to the ministers not working well with each other. It seems like the main failure of many cabinets lies at setting high expectations then failing to meet expectations and poor communication with the public rather than any infighting/instability.
Chief Supervising Armchair
Only issue I have is cabinet members like Minister of Defense might be better served by a voting public familiar with the SPSF than a random appointment by a well deserving new Prime minister having spent no time following or being involved in or with SPSF activities and not knowing a worthy appointment. MoFA is another branch that needs the right person a new Prime Minister might not know
(07-20-2022, 03:54 PM)QuietDad Wrote: Only issue I have is cabinet members like Minister of Defense might be better served by a voting public familiar with the SPSF than a random appointment by a well deserving new Prime minister having spent no time following or being involved in or with SPSF activities and not knowing a worthy appointment. MoFA is another branch that needs the right person a new Prime Minister might not know This may perhaps be solved with how it works in many real militaries - there is a professional head of the army/military (usually the most senior general/admiral, eg. the First Sea Lord) who is chosen or appointed by the Generals, and then the Minister of Defence, which is usually a political figure who is part of the cabinet. That way, there's always someone at the head of the organisation who has the most experience in running it even if the Minister has no experience with the position at all, and if the Prime Minister just doesn't have any idea who they should put as the Minister, they can chose that professional head (though I don't think the latter happens very often irl, but it would be quite useful here). I would also like to say that whichever way this goes, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to completely remove any mention in law relating to how our military or foreign affairs ministry is run. The SPSF and MoFA very much depend on having laws which guarantee their existence and also set out rules for how they are run, especially regarding the Military Code (which set out some pretty important details regarding rules, disciplinary action and the structure of the SPSF) and what powers the MoFA has regarding treaties and foreign relations. I get that most Prime Ministers will want to keep these ministries in place, but these Ministries are still too important to simply trust the Prime Minister at the time to not use their practically unlimited power to do whatever they want with them, and it would just be much more reassuring on all sides (domestically and abroad) if they remained as law. I think it'd be feasible to do this for the other ministries, though, as they aren't essential to national security in the same way.
(07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: It doesn't seem like there have been significant arguments put forth in favor of an elected Cabinet, so I wanted to lay out a few of mine.Let's fix that, shall we. It allows a unified agenda. In TSP elections, we're used to hearing PMs say "we'll have a unified, published, super swag Cabinet agenda". It never happens. It's not because the PMs are always bad PMs, it's because the system structurally prevents you having a unified agenda. In regions, every function is interlinked. "Engagement" is ultimately promoting every other branch of government, "culture" exists in the context of foreign affairs events, foreign affairs serves the needs of the SPSF and vice versa, the SPSF relies on engagement to get new Soldiers, WA functions are essentially an outgrowth of FA ones, etc. As it is now, each Minister is elected with their own agenda, and even if the PM gives orders, the Ministers will generally prioritize their own agenda over the collective agenda for the region, in part because it's what they signed up to do. Any ability to move the region forward is lost. It allows the government to meet the needs of the moment. The needs of the region's executive are constantly changing, far faster than the Assembly can (or should) move to change the structure of individual Ministries. If a PM runs on a unified vision for the region's government, and all its component parts, they can both select Ministers and Ministries to meet those needs. This avoids a situation where our Ministries are essentially stalled out, shackled by old responsibility sets, etc. It's more efficient. There are always barriers to effective government in NS. Often times, they're in-game, and other times they're out-of-game factors influencing in-game events. Staying on top of things requires fast reactions and efficiency - the ability to say "this person isn't getting the job done, we need someone new". In the status quo, the PM doesn't have that power. Unless something extraordinary happens which rises to the level of a recall, the PM is stuck with the Minister and has to deal with their refusal to work towards the PM's actual agenda. This doesn't work, it costs the government valuable time, and demotivates government officials themselves. Ministers are selected for the job they need to do, not another job. Right now, Ministers aren't selected for the job the PM needs them to do. They're selected for the job they chose to do. Only top-down selection-power over the Cabinet actually causes Ministers to think "do I want to do the job as the PM has outlined it in their campaign and deliver on those promises?" as opposed to "do I want to do this thing?". It provides a focus for political energy. Right now, in order to hold any part of the executive accountable, the Assembly has to look seven different places, blame is shifted around, and there's frankly no one the buck stops with. Of course, we say the buck stops with the PM, but I don't think this is true in practice. Often, blame is deflected to every other official on the list except the PM, in part because the PM has no actual control. Having a unitary executive is actually better for producing a robust democracy because it provides a focus for player aspirations, attention, praise, and criticism. Right now, no election is genuinely exciting because the difference between the candidates is often a small difference in ideas rather than a sweepingly different vision, because there's only so much they can do. And, honestly, the limited power and capability of the PM probably explains why so few people want the job: it's basically a useless job that doesn't let you do anything. A difference of vision between candidates with comprehensive visions for the entire region is a better contrast for producing a healthy internal democracy and electoral cycle as well as interest in the position. It's better for mentorship. Direct appointment is actually better for plucking new members out of obscurity and giving them a chance. In an elected system, a new player always loses to an incumbent. Or, no credible candidate runs, so the version of "giving a new player a chance" is to give the office to someone with likely no promise. Frankly, many new players who have promise are also skeptical of themselves, and won't believe in themselves unless someone points to them and says "you, yes you, should step up to the plate". Instead, new players who have little potential and lots of arrogance step up. Not only are new players with actual promise likely to become Minister but there's a structure for mentorship that they will feel more comfortable using, as reaching out to someone who has invested political energy into selecting you for office for help is far more likely. The power of the lean. One of the best ways to get people in NS to do things is a direct personal ask. The abstract of the region wanting you to do a job is not the same as the direct ask or request of the PM saying "I want you for this job, here's why, and here's how I'll support you in doing that". It's better for properly staffing our Ministries and keeping people involved. I'll also answer your arguments: (07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: For a South Pacifican who, like many of us, discovers an interest in a particular area of government, an elected cabinet system provides greater confidence that they will be able to continue participating in that area. They know that the ministry they're interested in won't be abolished at the whim of a particular Prime Minister.If an area of government proves itself helpful, it's unlikely to be abolished. And promising to abolish it would be a major campaign issue for the Prime Minister. It's a self correcting issue. If a PM starts abolishing Ministries on a whim, they will face huge outcry and likely recall by the Assembly. Lastly, a PM would still have to fulfill particular functions of government to maintain credibility, so at worst staff would be reorganized in most cases. Also, for internal functions, they can simply privatize the effort (as we've seen with the Ministry of Media). (07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: They know that if they have significant ideas to move the ministry forward, they can make the case to their fellow South Pacificans directly. They know that they will remain accountable to their fellow South Pacificans through a consistent and predictable electoral process. In an appointed system, the opposite is true. They are directly accountable to the Prime Minister, who may be leaving office in a few months at most. They know that at that time, they may need to make their case to a new Prime Minister with very different plans for their ministry.If a Minister is making progress in a Ministry, then a Prime Minister will likely retain them. If they aren't, then they won't. It's the same as under an election system, it only changes who they are accountable to to a more efficient system. (07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: And they know that may be the case regardless of how satisfied South Pacificans are with their performance, because there will be many more issues at stake in the Prime Minister elections than a single ministry.To some extent, this is actually a good thing. Right now, our government functions are too silo'd instead of being unified, which prevents PMs moving the entire region forward, as opposed to just some of its parts. (07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: Cabinet elections offer clear pathways to retention. [...]This is mostly a repetition of the previous point (07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: This situation places greater emphasis on efficiency and unity in the Cabinet rather than on democracy. Cabinet elections are a deliberate electoral process with an emphasis on plans, goals, and hopes for different parts of our government. Cabinet appointments are a deliberate political process with an emphasis on building a Cabinet that works well together on a common agenda — which is subtly but notably different from building a Cabinet that accurately represents the views of South Pacificans.On the contrary, a Cabinet elected individually doesn't represent South Pacifican views for comprehensive government. It represents what South Pacificans want for a predetermined set of individual parts. Frankly, it makes the choice for South Pacificans that they want a disunified government, which isn't necessarily the case. Even beyond that, it begs why democratic input at that particular step is valuable. If democracy was our sole value, we would simply abolish the Charter as is and the Assembly would decide every issue by majority vote. But we don't do that, because practicality, security, efficiency, and effectiveness are all factors as well. Shifting where democratic accountability is applied doesn't eliminate that accountability. Also, confirmations by the Assembly check any kind of runaway abuse by the PM. (07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: Cabinet elections provide voters with more choices. While I'm sure someone will note the number of uncontested Cabinet races we've had, an appointed Cabinet just papers over the cracks. Even if we have more Prime Minister candidates, voters will essentially be choosing between omnibus packages. They may not agree with any Prime Minister candidates in every area, but they will be consciously weighing which candidate they disagree with the least; there is no guarantee the elected Prime Minister will represent the views of the region in each area within their purview. With an elected Cabinet, each individual voter may not see all of their favored candidates win election, but the elected candidates will represent the general will of voters within their particular area of responsibility.Again, this assumes the region has discrete parts that operate entirely autonomously from one another instead of as a unified vision with individual parts. Sure, it decreases the amount of control that voters have over each part of the agenda, but it gives them a say in what the entire agenda should be, which is honestly more important for the long-term direction of the region. As a related point of criticism, none of your justifications actually outline what the role of the PM should be under an elected Cabinet system. Minister of Foreign Affairs
General of the South Pacific Special Forces Ambassador to Balder Former Prime Minister and Minister of Defense (07-22-2022, 09:54 PM)HumanSanity Wrote:Well, first of all, I am glad you fixed it(07-19-2022, 02:14 AM)Pronoun Wrote: It doesn't seem like there have been significant arguments put forth in favor of an elected Cabinet, so I wanted to lay out a few of mine.Let's fix that, shall we. If you'll forgive me for oversimplifying a bit, almost all of your points seem to coalesce around a desire for a more efficient executive. An unified agenda... so the Cabinet can operate more efficiently. More flexible structure... so the Cabinet can operate more efficiently. A faster process for replacing Ministers... so the Cabinet can operate more efficiently. See where I'm going? Your response to my concerns about emphasizing efficiency over democracy addresses the democracy aspect, but doesn't particularly extoll the virtues of efficiency either. Why is efficiency in particular such a critical virtue for the executive to hold? Why is it so important that the executive always have a comprehensive, singularly-defined agenda to accomplish as effectively as possible? I know it all looks good on paper, but the same could be said of many other virtues. Why this one in particular? To lay out some of my hesitations with embracing efficiency as our primary goal with the executive, I'll refer back to my previous example of a newcomer who discovers an interest in a particular area of government. They start getting involved, they start forming their own ideas, and they start voicing them. And... then what? Suck up to the Prime Minister? Start criticizing them publicly? There's no direct link between each Ministry and the Assembly. Members of each ministry are held accountable by the Minister, who is held accountable by the Prime Minister, who is held accountable by the Assembly. An appointment system creates an additional level of hierarchy, which one may argue is necessary for more efficient government, but it's another layer of hierarchy that people and ideas have to go through. An appointed Cabinet implies a top-down mindset, built around established figures: the Assembly elects someone for their overall vision, and that person fills out the rest of their structure from top to bottom. An elected Cabinet implies a bottom-up mindset, built around newer figures: the Assembly elects people for their ideas in a specific area, and those people work together as the Cabinet. When our newcomer finds themselves at the bottom of a top-down system, their options get limited. They can hope to get plucked out of obscurity and get the kind of mentorship that an elected Cabinet structure can't provide. Or maybe they can go and criticize the Prime Minister in the Assembly, in the hopes that someone else eyeing the Prime Minister position will take note and remember them if they're elected. But you know what's much harder to do? Take their case to the Assembly themselves. They can't simply go to the Assembly, lay out their ideas, and explain why they are the best candidate to lead their ministry. And they can't simply legislate some changes to how their ministry operates, lest that defeat the entire purpose of giving the Prime Minister such broad leeway to determine how ministries are run. One might argue this is for the better. A newcomer like this might be well-intentioned, but have little understanding of how their particular area of interest is actually interlinked with many other parts of government. And so what? If you ask me, it's much better to let them get more involved and gain more exposure to other aspects of our region than to simply tell them to go get more involved elsewhere first. Only one of these approaches develops interest organically. And don't get me wrong — I do believe that the way some of our ministries are organized are fundamentally flawed. That doesn't mean codifying our ministries into law is a recipe for disunified government. I just think that not every South Pacifican has detailed views for comprehensive government. But our newcomer might be taking their first step towards developing the broader and deeper understanding of regional politics that will lead to a more comprehensive perspective. Democracy is about more than accountability. It's about ideas. Democracy may be kept in check by voters holding their elected officials accountable, but it's powered by the ideas those voters put forth and, especially here in our community, by those voters being willing to take a leap and seek election themselves. A more 'grassroots' (I'm using the term a bit broadly, I admit) approach doesn't mean the Prime Minister has no meaningful job. They get to be responsible for "the overall coordination of executive activities, being a liaison between the government and the community, and protecting the Coalition!" No. I'm kidding. I admit that our current Charter can be a bit... unhelpful. But the Prime Minister does have a bully pulpit, a means to make themselves heard. You mention that oftentimes, "we say the buck stops with the PM." But the Prime Minister doesn't have to accept that. If there's anything that the number of people supporting an appointed Cabinet should show, it's that people recognize a primus inter pares may not hold much more power de jure than their counterparts. But it is also true that the Prime Minister holds the greatest visibility in the Cabinet. If they answer to the Assembly most directly, there's no obligation to defend every the work of their Cabinet in every aspect. They can report on the performance of different parts of government and provide insight, from their uniquely high-level perspective, to inform the Assembly of the overall state of the executive. Sometimes, that may include a ministry that is slipping, or a minister who is pursuing their own ideas perhaps a bit too stubbornly without consulting others. It's not a reflection on the Prime Minister — the interplay between ministries is something the Prime Minister is uniquely positioned to understand, and their insight can and should provide valuable insight into Assembly discussions.
(07-23-2022, 07:05 AM)Pronoun Wrote: If you'll forgive me for oversimplifying a bit, almost all of your points seem to coalesce around a desire for a more efficient executive.This oversimplifies my points a lot. "Efficiency" is only one way of ensuring effective governance, although it is an important one. Governance is also about outreach, setting and meeting goals, ensuring next generations are available to take on leadership, and being responsive to the concerns of the citizenry. All of these are goals better accomplished via an appointment-based system, for the reasons I explained above. Of course, you acknowledge some of that later, but your broad framing of "well, you only said efficiency, and democracy > efficiency" is inaccurate. (07-23-2022, 07:05 AM)Pronoun Wrote: Why is efficiency in particular such a critical virtue for the executive to hold? Why is it so important that the executive always have a comprehensive, singularly-defined agenda to accomplish as effectively as possible?1. Why should we have an 'executive' at all? Glen actually floated a proposal a while ago via Discord as a thought experiment to simply transfer all governance to the Assembly and abolish the Cabinet and the executive. Then, democracy can flourish. Ideas can flourish. Individual parts of the government can be tweaked at will. The reason not to do this is mass inefficiency and lack of a singular vision, infighting or just apathy begins to consume government, and as a result people become disengaged and apathy sets in. Of course, elected Ministers is a mid-point between these extremes, but the extreme example demonstrates that efficiency does matter. We don't prioritize efficiency over everything. The Prime Minister should still be elected and their Ministry appointments should still have to be confirmed. The Prime Minister should also be able to be recalled for neglect, abuse of power, etc. However it's silly to say efficiency doesn't matter. The executive identifying and then accomplishing its tasks is the primary goal of the executive, otherwise there's no reason for it to exist. 2. An effective executive is key to the long-term success of the region. What is the goal here? From my perspective, the goal of everything we do is to create a South Pacific that is sovereign, strong, free, fun to be in, able to identify its own goals, and then advocate for them interregionally. Every piece of that is important. Sovereign and strong institutions bounded by liberal democratic ideas is the baseline thing that must be protected at all costs, but beyond that things are about allowing the region to not just survive but thrive. A fun region, with clearly identified goals, and the capability to advocate for them interregionally requires a unified executive, with a single agenda, and all the pieces working in unison. Right now, that is impossible. With a singular head of government, it is at least possible, and then its failure to exist can allow someone to be held accountable. (07-23-2022, 07:05 AM)Pronoun Wrote: They start getting involved, they start forming their own ideas, and they start voicing them. And... then what? Suck up to the Prime Minister? Start criticizing them publicly? There's no direct link between each Ministry and the Assembly. Members of each ministry are held accountable by the Minister, who is held accountable by the Prime Minister, who is held accountable by the Assembly. An appointment system creates an additional level of hierarchy, which one may argue is necessary for more efficient government, but it's another layer of hierarchy that people and ideas have to go through.I think you overstate the burden that this would impose on new members. Inside of Ministries, staffers can say "what if we organized things X way". If it's an idea that is compatible with the Prime Minister's broader vision, it may get implemented! If it's not, then they have to wait for the next election when they can raise that question to Prime Ministerial candidates. There's not as many disjoints or disconnects as you think. The same step (waiting for the next election) exists under your system as well and people can still post or advocate ideas as a member of the public, regardless of if they're legislatively based. Also, I'm considering floating an 'Assembly Committees' idea that may address some of this issue. Watch this space (07-23-2022, 07:05 AM)Pronoun Wrote: A more 'grassroots' (I'm using the term a bit broadly, I admit) approach doesn't mean the Prime Minister has no meaningful job. They get to be responsible for "the overall coordination of executive activities, being a liaison between the government and the community, and protecting the Coalition!" No. I'm kidding. I admit that our current Charter can be a bit... unhelpful. But the Prime Minister does have a bully pulpit, a means to make themselves heard. You mention that oftentimes, "we say the buck stops with the PM." But the Prime Minister doesn't have to accept that. If there's anything that the number of people supporting an appointed Cabinet should show, it's that people recognize a primus inter pares may not hold much more power de jure than their counterparts. But it is also true that the Prime Minister holds the greatest visibility in the Cabinet. If they answer to the Assembly most directly, there's no obligation to defend every the work of their Cabinet in every aspect. They can report on the performance of different parts of government and provide insight, from their uniquely high-level perspective, to inform the Assembly of the overall state of the executive. Sometimes, that may include a ministry that is slipping, or a minister who is pursuing their own ideas perhaps a bit too stubbornly without consulting others. It's not a reflection on the Prime Minister — the interplay between ministries is something the Prime Minister is uniquely positioned to understand, and their insight can and should provide valuable insight into Assembly discussions.This is the problem. The Prime Minister is honestly less powerful than individual Ministers because they have no authority over specific areas. They have communication responsibilities and a vague mandate to serve as head of government. But they are not actually the head of the government. They do not pick the government. They do not pick the government's agenda. They have little to no recourse if Cabinet Members do not do their jobs. You say the Prime Minister can serve as "primus inter pares". If that's the case, the PM can be selected from within the Cabinet rather than being a separate elected position. If their role is only clerical, it does not actually need its own person in the Cabinet. Beyond that, it assumes the Cabinet should be a body of equals rather than a body with hierarchy. That introduces all of the inefficiencies we've seen weighing down TSP's executive government for years. I also can't say I really want a political dynamic where the executive is constantly shifting blame between one another. That's internally divisive and doesn't actually accomplish things. Not to mention, it's not how the position is framed to work now, as it's in contrast to the PM as head of government or the notion of Cabinet collective responsibility. I'll be very blunt: I have a term and a half as PM under my belt. I don't think it's too much ego to say I was a fairly strong PM, both in terms of accomplishments and in terms of my willingness and ability to use the role as a "bully pulpit" of sorts who attempts to take genuine leadership over the Cabinet. I don't know why anyone would want to be PM and I sincerely doubt I'd run again under its current set up. It's a job where you have to deal with every problem in the region but don't actually have the tools to do so. The only power you have to shape the region is to be proactive and loud in discussions and do communications and paperwork. In effect, however, you have very little power to shape the outcomes in the region during your term because you don't set the agenda or the team who will accomplish it. We often bemoan the lack of candidates in our elections. Have we considered it's because the jobs we're electing people for aren't worth running for and therefore people don't aspire for them? No seriously. What new member of the region thinks to themselves "some day I'd like to be PM, that person seems like they get to get things done and implement their vision for the region"? The answer is none. Because the PM is a useless toothless job in the status quo. And that fact is hurting the region's growth and ability to function. Minister of Foreign Affairs
General of the South Pacific Special Forces Ambassador to Balder Former Prime Minister and Minister of Defense
It seems this discussion has stalled out a bit, which is rather unfortunate considering the discussion behind the actual reasoning for this proposal is just getting started.
That said, I want to give us something more to work with for discussion (and eventually voting) purposes. I'm not super happy with how Moon's redrafts to the Charter, etc. are working, in large part because I think they're still trapped by the vestiges of a collective responsibility Cabinet rather than a singular unitary executive. I also think it's important to provide space for some of the compromise ideas that have been discussed here to be included in the draft. I'll also note that I've included the shift to a three month term rather than a four month term in this draft. So, here goes. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Minister of Foreign Affairs
General of the South Pacific Special Forces Ambassador to Balder Former Prime Minister and Minister of Defense |
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