| [Qwert's Sci-Fi RP][Discussion-OOC] Space Combat |
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Hello fellow interstellar comrades! Today, I would like to propose a discussion on interstellar combat, and what style we prefer.
As usual, there are two main styles we can pull from when it comes to space combat: a more high-realism Science Fiction version, such as in the TV show The Expanse,or a low realism/science fantasy style, like those in the popular works like Star Wars and Star Trek. I'll be totally upfront with you, I personally have a bias towards a harder Sci-Fi style because it just makes sense to me with the advancements of technology, but i think both styles are interesting and will suit combat in our RPs. Now, however, we will go over both styles, starting with the more realistic Expanse style. High Realism Sci-Fi Combat: The Expanse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4vzoQm_xw [This video goes over the basics of how space combat works in The Expanse.] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq0xETavaN0 And this video is an example from The Expanse's TV show of what CQB would look like. preemptive warning to the squeamish, don't stick around to the end.] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6unYfLsN-Tg [A video going over how missiles operate in high-realism Sci-Fi] Alright, so to go over the basics of Expanse-style combat, You have 3 main areas of combat: Long Range and CQB Long Range Combat is dominated by high velocity tracking weapons like missiles and torpedoes(though in practice these end up acting in much the same fashion, with "torpedoes" just being larger missiles with higher payload intended for large spacecraft. Note that this does not exclude the use of missiles in targeting larger craft, just that they are a lower yield). Much like in the real world, missiles and torpedoes are used by ships and fighters to engage and destroy targets over large distances(1000+ km). Ships will rely on technology like chaff/flare countermeasures or point defense cannons(PDCs) from missiles and torpedoes. This is mainly because, as shown in the final video, in high-realism space combat, even more maneuverable ships like small fighter-craft would realistically be unable to compete with the thrust-to-weight ratio of a missile, making it impossible to avoid without chaff/flares or a PDC to destroy it. The second stage of realistic combat is CQB. Short for Close Quarter Battle, this is where mid and short(<1000 km) range weapons like rail-guns and other high-velocity weapons come into play. With your ships that survive the long range battle, they close distance and begin using these closer range weapons to defeat hostile targets. For unarmored(and/or unshielded) most CQB weapons will tear through targets, causing hull breaches and ultimately destroying most ships. At medium ranges, most ships will rely on larger cannons to engage targets, and as they get closer, using PDCs to ensure an enemy vessel's destruction. A high-realism Sci-Fi fleet would operate similarly to modern navies, travelling in large flotillas to combine their PDC and countermeasure power to protect themselves from torpedo and missile attack. Generally, battles would proceed in 3 stages: long range torpedo and missile engagement, mid-range CQB, and short range CQB. During long range combat, fleets would stick together, coordinating their PDC weapons and other countermeasures to take down as many incoming torpedoes as possible to minimize casualties. As ships would run out of long range weapons, they would either attempt to disengage or close distance with the enemy fleet to use their mid range weapons and eventually their PDCs to destroy any surviving enemy ships. This is where fleet tactics come into play, as larger and smaller ships begin attempts to outmaneuver and overwhelm the enemy. Usually, whoever has a larger force will win the day, however: technology also becomes an important part of the play. Your fleet may be smaller than your enemies but if your technology is more advanced and your PDCs are more accurate you stand a better chance at surviving the initial barrages, leaving your fleet in a better position as the battle drags on. If your fleet relies on stealth plating and other stealth technologies, you might be able to use your smaller, stealth oriented fleet to sneak closer to an enemy fleet, unleashing your torpedo and missile salvos closer to enemy vessels, giving their PDCs and countermeasures less time to respond. Though larger, better armed, and more advanced warships do often play a much larger role in fleet battles, more realistic battles do not exclude the importance of smaller, high maneuverability warships. Lighter ship classes such as corvettes and fighters can be used in hit and run attacks, quickly launching their torpedo and missile volleys and then retreating out of a hostile's range before an enemy fleet can respond to the attack. However, in larger fleets, they can serve as highly maneuverable PDC platforms, using their main engines and RCS thrusters to move throughout the fleet as needed to intercept oncoming torpedoes and missiles. They can also be used as effective CQB ships, using their low thrust-to-weight ratio to dodge oncoming enemy cannon and PDC fire, while spraying their own lighter cannons and PDCs at nearby enemy ships. Low Realism Sci-Fi Combat: Star Trek and Star Wars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZYGmbQoQI [From Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Operation Return was a major battle during the Dominion War representing what low-realism combat would be like without the heavy use of high-maneuver starships or starfighters] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCVWm20fU0A [The Battle of Scarif from Star Wars: Rogue One. An example of a universe where high-maneuver vessels like starfighters play a large role in most battles, often being the deciding factors in most battles in the Star Wars Universe.] Low-realism Sci-Fi Combat generally has it's inspiration in the pre-Cold War style of ship-to-ship warfare, with battles often occurring on two-dimensional plains where both side's ships can engage each other with their main weapons. Since Star Wars is more consistent in this than Star Trek(with the one exception of Star Trek Online), ship weapon ranges usually depend on the size and yield of the weapon, with most heavier guns like large, heavy turbolaser cannons being able to fire at targets from around 5000 kilometers away(though often having a maximum effective range of anywhere between 100-20 kilometers as seen in the movies http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange.html ) and with many smaller craft like starfighters being forced into extreme close range(<1 km) to engage hostile targets. For most weapons, low realism sci-fi combat generally uses all weapon types to engage at all rangers, often defining laser weapons as energy weapons used to do damage to a ships shield while using kinetic or explosive weapons like torpedoes and missiles as anti-armor ordinance(though against lightly armored vessels or when using heavy laser weapons it often appears to be just as effective). Generally, though, the "Rule of Cool" often applies in lower realism sci-fi, such as with larger weapons' power like The Death Star from Star Wars. Though starfighters and high maneuver ships play a large role in lower realism sci fi(we can even see this in the DS9 clip, a franchise which has usually avoided high maneuver warfare), larger warships still have a role to play. We can see this both in Star Trek's more slow maneuver warfare, and most significantly in the tactics of Star Wars' Imperial Grand Admiral Thrawn. Thrawn, considered one of the Star Wars' galaxy's greatest tacticians, developed tactics revolving around capital ship warfare while still dealing with a fighter-centric New Republic. He would develop many tactics, such as the Thrawn Pincer, which used Interdictor-class cruisers' gravity well generators to allow portions of Thrawn's fleet to do micro-jumps during a battle, allowing Thrawn to surround opposing fleets with his reinforcements jumping in behind the opposition's battle lines. And unlike some of their more realistic counterparts, in both the Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica franchises, you will find larger capital ships serving in a battleship-carrier role, bringing both large, Anti-Capital guns to the fight and the starfighters which these franchises so often attribute with winning the day. My Opinion: High Realism with a mix of Science Fantasy Personally, I do really enjoy high realism sci-fi works with space combat. I personally feel that though it is not often done, when it is done well like in the Expanse(or even in shows like Battlestar Galactica where the Colonial Vipers make heavy use of RCS thrusters during combat) it truly creates an immersive battle and really feels like part of the advancement of technology from our time to the potential future. However, despite that, I don't see why we can't include some more low-realism tech like beam lasers or energy shielding in the mix to help add some more fun to our sci-fi world. A sci-fi series that really does this combination of technologies and science is the TV show Babylon 5. That show has societies that have very realistic technology, like the missile/rail-gun destroyers and spin-gravity of the Earth Alliance, to the artificial gravity, shielding, and laser-based weapons of the Minbari. However, that doesn't mean we have to exclude ship designs from lower realism sci-fi franchises from our fleets. From Star Wars, for example, the Imperial Star Destroyer's triangle style design could potentially be set up in a more realistic setting with a simple addition a/o change of gun emplacements to include coverage for the entire ship, and with the addition of torpedo tubes and point defense cannons(PDCs could even be laser-based instead of kinetic-based). I mean hell even give a T.I.E. Fighter RCS thrusters and it might not even be out of place in a future Earth Interstellar Military(given N.A.S.A. already uses Ion engines for some of it's probes). Anyways, to summarize, I think we can afford to do high-realism style combat even with some more lower realism sci-fi elements(even some of the ship designs). Obviously, it ultimately falls to Qwert since he runs our Sci-fi universe, but I like to think this will encourage discussion among my fellow Sci-Fi enthusiasts to help decide what we want our sci-fi combat to look like in this universe.
An eye for an eye just makes the whole world go blind.
~Mahatma Gandhi
No matter what, my choice is Star Wars fighting, as my armed forces are based on it
Deputy Regional Minister of the Planning and Development Agency(March 8-May 19, 2014)
Local Council Member(April 24-August 11) Court Justice of TSP(August 15-December 7)
Really good explanations of the the two styles!
I've always thought shows like Star Trek and Star Wars lacked the long-range dimension. Space battles in Star Wars are mainly fought in a WWII style, with futuristic aircraft carrier and dreadnought equivalents. Space battles in Star Trek remind me of the close-range battles during the age of sail, trying to outmanoeuvre your opponent and hit critical systems. In the Expanse, space battles resemble modern naval warfare, with multiple "layers" of missile defences, and manoeuvrability is not essential. I think that a civilisation that has achieved any FTL technology ought to have a good range of more or less exotic weapons and defences in its arsenal, some useful at long ranges, some at close quarters. There could also be circumstances where a certain mode is not practical or impossible. On the more exotic side one could imagine creating artificial micro-black holes near the hull of an opponent, or some kind of projectile composed of some particles that only interact with objects composed of electrically charged particles, etc. I believe it all comes down to what players agree. If they want a Star Wars-style battle, that's fine, and if they want an Expanse-style battle, that's fine too. Then there's also the question how much detail there really will be in the battles we RP. I would like to note that I don't claim to be the one to set the rules or ultimately decide how to play. I think of this FT RP world like how we use the regional map, by consensus.
Liked just for mentioning Babylon 5 (and Battlestar Galactica).
Sent from my KOB-L09 using Tapatalk Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond! Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi. Salma 145:8
(05-31-2018, 02:04 PM)Qwert Wrote: Really good explanations of the the two styles! I mean yea totally. Environmental effects would be something really cool to discuss and see how they'd play out with our weapons and defenses. Admittedly though, my last paragraph is an attempt to push for a middle ground, of sorts, though still sort of leaning high-realism.
An eye for an eye just makes the whole world go blind.
~Mahatma Gandhi (05-31-2018, 07:42 PM)Seraph Wrote: Liked just for mentioning Babylon 5 (and Battlestar Galactica). "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Mimbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in-front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
An eye for an eye just makes the whole world go blind.
~Mahatma Gandhi (05-31-2018, 08:18 PM)Resentine Wrote:(05-31-2018, 07:42 PM)Seraph Wrote: Liked just for mentioning Babylon 5 (and Battlestar Galactica). "And so it begins..." (I couldn't like that quote enough - though it's Minbari...  )
Founder of the Church of the South Pacific [Forum Thread] [Discord], a safe place to discuss spirituality for people of all faiths and none (currently looking for those interested in prayer and/or "home" groups);
And The Silicon Pens [Discord], a writer's group for the South Pacific and beyond! Yahweo usenneo ir varleo, ihraneo jurlaweo hraseu seu, ir jiweveo arladi. Salma 145:8
(05-31-2018, 08:07 PM)Resentine Wrote: I mean yea totally. Environmental effects would be something really cool to discuss and see how they'd play out with our weapons and defenses. Admittedly though, my last paragraph is an attempt to push for a middle ground, of sorts, though still sort of leaning high-realism. I'm all for realism (or perhaps plausibility in this case) in tactics. I don't think a contemporary scalable defence system (high-realism style combat) and more exotic/low-realism technology are mutually exclusive. |
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