[Debate] Splitting RA Round 2 |
(04-28-2020, 05:33 PM)Kris Kringle Wrote: When the people in charge of enacting and working with whatever changes you make insist that this is not the right way to go, they should be listened to instead of ridiculed. I'll be blunt Kris: is there any split proposal you would ever agree to? EDIT to avoid double post: if any of the senior leadership have a split proposal they support, bring it to the table and let's talk about it. I for one want to hear from leadership if they truly are open to a split. Let's have a public exchange of ideas. Above all else, I hope to be a decent person.
Has Been What's Next? CoA: August 2016-January 2017
Minister of Foreign Affairs: October 2019-June 2020, October 2020- February 2021
The concern Jay and I keep explaining is that we feel left out. The first and only answer to the issue of MoRA has always been the split; even now the invitation you just made isn't to discuss MoRA and figure out if a split is the best solution, you're straight up inviting us to suggest how to split. If we oppose a split we're left out and accused of having ridiculous concerns.
There comes a point where it's just too exhausting to keep repeating the same arguments. Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator. I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum. Legal Resources: THE MATT-DUCK Law Archive | Mavenu Diplomatic Archive | Rules of the High Court | Case Submission System | Online Rulings Consultation System
So if I understand this correctly, the complaint is that this deliberation is being held in the region's dedicated deliberative body which is open to anyone including each individual on the Advisory Council, and they would prefer that such deliberations be done in back channels rather than out in the open as part of our liberal democratic processes.
![]() (04-28-2020, 05:56 PM)Roavin Wrote: So if I understand this correctly, the complaint is that this deliberation is being held in the region's dedicated deliberative body which is open to anyone including each individual on the Advisory Council, and they would prefer that such deliberations be done in back channels rather than out in the open as part of our liberal democratic processes. If you're referring to Kringle, no, not at all. It's the subject matter that's the issue; splitting is far too often treated as the only possible and viable solution to an issue that (personally) I see as tangentially related. Splitting MoRA doesn't seem to be the best way to actually solving the issues discussed, so we want to discuss alternatives. We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether.
~~Rose~~
You may know me as Eggraria! Roleplayer and Writer Minister of Culture Legislator Office of WA Legislation Staff Roleplayer - the State of Eggraria Citizen of The South Pacific above all else. (04-28-2020, 06:07 PM)rosaferri Wrote: We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether. Then bring us some options instead of telling us that we don't understand the Ministry and that split is a bad idea. Above all else, I hope to be a decent person.
Has Been What's Next? CoA: August 2016-January 2017
Minister of Foreign Affairs: October 2019-June 2020, October 2020- February 2021
(04-28-2020, 06:07 PM)rosaferri Wrote:(04-28-2020, 05:56 PM)Roavin Wrote: So if I understand this correctly, the complaint is that this deliberation is being held in the region's dedicated deliberative body which is open to anyone including each individual on the Advisory Council, and they would prefer that such deliberations be done in back channels rather than out in the open as part of our liberal democratic processes. It's literally what Kris said, though. (04-28-2020, 05:00 PM)Kris Kringle Wrote: A much more productive way to go around things would've been for Omega or others to approach the minister, deputies and seniors, talk about our mutual concerns with how the ministry works and try to figure out a common solution. (04-28-2020, 06:07 PM)rosaferri Wrote: It's the subject matter that's the issue; splitting is far too often treated as the only possible and viable solution to an issue that (personally) I see as tangentially related. Splitting MoRA doesn't seem to be the best way to actually solving the issues discussed, so we want to discuss alternatives Splitting the ministry isn't the one solution to all problems, and I'm sure most if not everybody currently on the pro-split side of the debate agree with that. Personally, I think an equal importance should be placed on finding better ways of getting people into the ministries, and there have been some discussions on this recently that are just waiting for me to summarize and put to the public for debate. Meanwhile, the argument goes both ways, because the fact that quite a few people have openly stated that they would prefer running for one of the split positions rather than for the MoRA as a whole has certainly been ignored and/or brushed aside on the anti-split side of this. (04-28-2020, 06:07 PM)rosaferri Wrote: We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether. If this forum is not for talking about all of these things, what is it for? ![]()
Not when some of us feel that our opinions and thoughts have no merit.
This is Penguin!!
Nothing Gold Can Stay Penguins shall one day rule the pie! And by "pie", I mean "World"!! Goddess Empress Queen Princess Lady of TSP Lilium Inter Spinas // Non timebo mala I have done a lot of things in the Region in my History. There's a list somewhere if you wanna go looking. (04-28-2020, 06:19 PM)Penguin Wrote: Not when some of us feel that our opinions and thoughts have no merit. People disagreeing with you is not the same as us saying your opinions have no merit. If I thought your opinions had no merit I would not have addressed them point by point the last time you presented them. This sentiment is shared by some of us who are pro split. It seems like every time someone says a split could be a good idea, Ministry leadership say that their opinion has no merit. Above all else, I hope to be a decent person.
Has Been What's Next? CoA: August 2016-January 2017
Minister of Foreign Affairs: October 2019-June 2020, October 2020- February 2021 (04-28-2020, 06:10 PM)Omega Wrote:(04-28-2020, 06:07 PM)rosaferri Wrote: We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether. Alright, let's discuss: Let's talk about the idea that a split will solve the issue of activity within the actual ministry. You've proposed that the senior fellow/fellow schematic will not particularly work in regards to the fact that these members don't have an inherent motivation to participate. If I understand all of that correctly as your argument, here's my response: Right now, at least on the culture side of things, Agalaesia's working on a solution to try to encourage our member base to be more active. While I don't want to give too much away (as I believe it's his right to release his plans as he wishes to have them appear), it primarily rests on a meritocratic system in which members are rewarded for participating. I also personally believe the membership issue will not be fixed based on a structural, but rather promotional, solution. I've seen this being discussed before, but someone (I forget who at this present moment) mentioned it's far more easy for a newcomer to be a member of SPSF than a journalist. I personally couldn't agree more. Promotion and integration are our solutions; there's no need to make structural changes if they won't actually assist in these factors. Now, discussing output of the ministries: a minister can provide a clear, set agenda that will guide the remainder of the users and should be primarily active with their members. If the ministry has no direction, it's on the minister, not the system. If MoFA didn't have a minister that guided diplomatic goals, then how could you expect the ambassadors to have a consistent path to follow? I don't believe structural changes will inherently fix the problem of an output at any given time, because any ministry can be behind on their set goals. I ask that you remain civil in a reply (that goes to everyone). I mostly likely won't bother with replying to each and every response, and that's simply because times have been stressful as of late and I don't need the additional stress. Please don't take my lack of a response as having a lack of an answer; I'm preoccupied with many other things and just took the time to address how/why I don't believe many of the grievances discussed are inherent to the structure of the ministry.
~~Rose~~
You may know me as Eggraria! Roleplayer and Writer Minister of Culture Legislator Office of WA Legislation Staff Roleplayer - the State of Eggraria Citizen of The South Pacific above all else.
(04-28-2020, 05:28 PM)Omega Wrote:(04-28-2020, 05:10 PM)Jay Coop Wrote: So, I'm drawing the line in the sand: if we can't draft a proposal that wins the support of several senior officials within MoRA, I'm not gonna support whatever proposal goes to vote. Heyo, I'm going to just really quickly interject here, to my knowledge, some senior members of MoRA (Deputy ministers+senior fellows) HAVE actually stated what they felt individually about this debate. A second little thing, I really would appreciate it if we don't start attacking the person (I am referring to "This is a line in the sand you know can't be met and are just using it to shield yourself from criticism for a proposal you were one of the biggest advocates of." here) I don't include myself in the debate because I wish to remain as neutral as possible, but I do feel like this needs to be said. A side note, it does seem like this has become a little more heated than necessary. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Current Minister of Military Affairs Chair Perch of the Assembly (February to June 2020) SPSF Soldier MoRA Fellow Ambassador to Forest and Lazarus |
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