When the people in charge of enacting and working with whatever changes you make insist that this is not the right way to go, they should be listened to instead of ridiculed.

I'll be blunt Kris: is there any split proposal you would ever agree to?

EDIT to avoid double post: if any of the senior leadership have a split proposal they support, bring it to the table and let's talk about it. I for one want to hear from leadership if they truly are open to a split. Let's have a public exchange of ideas.

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(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 05:40 PM by Omega.)

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The concern Jay and I keep explaining is that we feel left out. The first and only answer to the issue of MoRA has always been the split; even now the invitation you just made isn't to discuss MoRA and figure out if a split is the best solution, you're straight up inviting us to suggest how to split. If we oppose a split we're left out and accused of having ridiculous concerns.

There comes a point where it's just too exhausting to keep repeating the same arguments.

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So if I understand this correctly, the complaint is that this deliberation is being held in the region's dedicated deliberative body which is open to anyone including each individual on the Advisory Council, and they would prefer that such deliberations be done in back channels rather than out in the open as part of our liberal democratic processes.

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So if I understand this correctly, the complaint is that this deliberation is being held in the region's dedicated deliberative body which is open to anyone including each individual on the Advisory Council, and they would prefer that such deliberations be done in back channels rather than out in the open as part of our liberal democratic processes.

If you're referring to Kringle, no, not at all. It's the subject matter that's the issue; splitting is far too often treated as the only possible and viable solution to an issue that (personally) I see as tangentially related. Splitting MoRA doesn't seem to be the best way to actually solving the issues discussed, so we want to discuss alternatives. We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether.

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We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether.

Then bring us some options instead of telling us that we don't understand the Ministry and that split is a bad idea.

Above all else, I hope to be a decent person.
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CoA: August 2016-January 2017
Minister of Foreign Affairs: October 2019-June 2020, October 2020- February 2021

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So if I understand this correctly, the complaint is that this deliberation is being held in the region's dedicated deliberative body which is open to anyone including each individual on the Advisory Council, and they would prefer that such deliberations be done in back channels rather than out in the open as part of our liberal democratic processes.

If you're referring to Kringle, no, not at all.

It's literally what Kris said, though.

A much more productive way to go around things would've been for Omega or others to approach the minister, deputies and seniors, talk about our mutual concerns with how the ministry works and try to figure out a common solution.

It's the subject matter that's the issue; splitting is far too often treated as the only possible and viable solution to an issue that (personally) I see as tangentially related. Splitting MoRA doesn't seem to be the best way to actually solving the issues discussed, so we want to discuss alternatives

Splitting the ministry isn't the one solution to all problems, and I'm sure most if not everybody currently on the pro-split side of the debate agree with that. Personally, I think an equal importance should be placed on finding better ways of getting people into the ministries, and there have been some discussions on this recently that are just waiting for me to summarize and put to the public for debate.

Meanwhile, the argument goes both ways, because the fact that quite a few people have openly stated that they would prefer running for one of the split positions rather than for the MoRA as a whole has certainly been ignored and/or brushed aside on the anti-split side of this.

We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether.

If this forum is not for talking about all of these things, what is it for?

(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 06:14 PM by Roavin.)

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Not when some of us feel that our opinions and thoughts have no merit.

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Not when some of us feel that our opinions and thoughts have no merit.

People disagreeing with you is not the same as us saying your opinions have no merit. If I thought your opinions had no merit I would not have addressed them point by point the last time you presented them.

This sentiment is shared by some of us who are pro split. It seems like every time someone says a split could be a good idea, Ministry leadership say that their opinion has no merit.

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CoA: August 2016-January 2017
Minister of Foreign Affairs: October 2019-June 2020, October 2020- February 2021

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We want to consider all of our options with you, the body of the assembly before we go to changing the charter altogether.

Then bring us some options instead of telling us that we don't understand the Ministry and that split is a bad idea.

Alright, let's discuss:

Let's talk about the idea that a split will solve the issue of activity within the actual ministry. You've proposed that the senior fellow/fellow schematic will not particularly work in regards to the fact that these members don't have an inherent motivation to participate. If I understand all of that correctly as your argument, here's my response:

Right now, at least on the culture side of things, Agalaesia's working on a solution to try to encourage our member base to be more active. While I don't want to give too much away (as I believe it's his right to release his plans as he wishes to have them appear), it primarily rests on a meritocratic system in which members are rewarded for participating. I also personally believe the membership issue will not be fixed based on a structural, but rather promotional, solution. I've seen this being discussed before, but someone (I forget who at this present moment) mentioned it's far more easy for a newcomer to be a member of SPSF than a journalist. I personally couldn't agree more. Promotion and integration are our solutions; there's no need to make structural changes if they won't actually assist in these factors.

Now, discussing output of the ministries: a minister can provide a clear, set agenda that will guide the remainder of the users and should be primarily active with their members. If the ministry has no direction, it's on the minister, not the system. If MoFA didn't have a minister that guided diplomatic goals, then how could you expect the ambassadors to have a consistent path to follow? I don't believe structural changes will inherently fix the problem of an output at any given time, because any ministry can be behind on their set goals.

I ask that you remain civil in a reply (that goes to everyone). I mostly likely won't bother with replying to each and every response, and that's simply because times have been stressful as of late and I don't need the additional stress. Please don't take my lack of a response as having a lack of an answer; I'm preoccupied with many other things and just took the time to address how/why I don't believe many of the grievances discussed are inherent to the structure of the ministry.

~~Rose~~
You may know me as Eggraria!
Roleplayer and Writer

---

Minister of Culture
Legislator
Office of WA Legislation Staff
Roleplayer - the State of Eggraria
Citizen of The South Pacific above all else.

---

Former positions

Office of WA Legislation Deputy Secretary - until c. May 2020
Legislator - until c. May 2020 [Resumed Position]
Ministry of Regional Affairs Senior Fellow for Events - until c. May 2020

Want some more information?

Eggraria is my main nation,
Ancapisterra is my secondary nation,
 and prismatica#0013 is my Discord handle.

(This post was last modified: 04-28-2020, 06:26 PM by rosaferri.)

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So, I'm drawing the line in the sand: if we can't draft a proposal that wins the support of several senior officials within MoRA, I'm not gonna support whatever proposal goes to vote.

With all due respect, time and time again the majority of the leadership in the Ministry of Regional Affairs have said they would be opposed to any kind of a split, and have reaffirmed that they are not going to change that belief. This is a line in the sand you know can't be met and are just using it to shield yourself from criticism for a proposal you were one of the biggest advocates of. If this senior leadership is so concerned they should voice their opinions publicly as opposed to simply having their Minister do it for them. If they are afraid to share their opinions with their constituents, perhaps they need to reconsider their opinions or have some trust that their constituents want to hear from them. I for one would be very interested to hear from the MoRA leadership as opposed to them hiding from the Assembly in private discord chats.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why leadership would not want to reduce their own realm of authority. That is a human response after all. But I don't feel inclined to reach out to a Ministry who just blames its problems on inactivity and the fact fellows aren't as strong as they used to be. Perhaps if the Ministry had seriously looked at top-down reorganization, I would have felt like maybe I would find sympathetic voices in the Ministry leadership.

If someone can answer this question in an honest way I will be amazed: why should I have reached out to the leadership of a Ministry that every juncture has seemed to be revolted by the fact anyone would dare suggest a split could potentially do some good? Nothing would have come out that conversation that would have been substantive. You are being disingenuous to claim otherwise.

I am not opposed to any individual in the MoRA. I want to give them a Ministry in which they can succeed, and I think we have seen time and time again that the current system is not working.

Heyo, I'm going to just really quickly interject here, to my knowledge, some senior members of MoRA (Deputy ministers+senior fellows) HAVE actually stated what they felt individually about this debate.

A second little thing, I really would appreciate it if we don't start attacking the person (I am referring to "This is a line in the sand you know can't be met and are just using it to shield yourself from criticism for a proposal you were one of the biggest advocates of." here)

I don't include myself in the debate because I wish to remain as neutral as possible, but I do feel like this needs to be said.

A side note, it does seem like this has become a little more heated than necessary.

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