Users browsing this thread:

***Tsunamy*** · 08-14-2016, 04:12 PM

I'd like something toward the "legislative agendas" — I don't want to scrap that full force, but if we can better narrow it — that would be great.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

**Belschaft** · 08-14-2016, 04:19 PM

My problem with "push legislative agendas" is that I was elected to the LC on a platform to do exactly that.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES

***sandaoguo*** · 08-14-2016, 05:23 PM

That doesn't make it right, though. If you want to push a legislative agenda, you can do that by getting the LC to cast its block vote the way you want it. But that doesn't mean the use of mass TGs shouldn't have some neutrality guidelines. How would you react if Tsu started sending counter-campaigns, for example?

(This post was last modified: 08-14-2016, 05:28 PM by sandaoguo.)

***Tsunamy*** · 08-14-2016, 05:38 PM

(08-14-2016, 04:19 PM)Belschaft Wrote: My problem with "push legislative agendas" is that I was elected to the LC on a platform to do exactly that.

Bel — there's a way to do that without riling up an angry mob to do it. As we've been discussing on Discord, giving good information and allowing where you're presenting both sides of the debate is fine. Hell, it's desirable!

But I don't think the region elected you to give selective information in an attempt to rally people around personal causes. (Not saying you did/would, but again, let's stretch what the next Local Councillor might want to do.) This potential is what I'm trying to fix here.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

(This post was last modified: 08-14-2016, 05:38 PM by Tsunamy.)

**Belschaft** · 08-14-2016, 05:39 PM

I believe that doing such would be within his remit as delegate.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES

**Belschaft** · 08-14-2016, 05:54 PM

(08-14-2016, 05:38 PM)Tsunamy Wrote:
(08-14-2016, 04:19 PM)Belschaft Wrote: My problem with "push legislative agendas" is that I was elected to the LC on a platform to do exactly that.

Bel — there's a way to do that without riling up an angry mob to do it. As we've been discussing on Discord, giving good information and allowing where you're presenting both sides of the debate is fine. Hell, it's desirable!

But I don't think the region elected you to give selective information in an attempt to rally people around personal causes. (Not saying you did/would, but again, let's stretch what the next Local Councillor might want to do.) This potential is what I'm trying to fix here.

I agree with you Tsu, which is why I support legislation along these lines. But my concern is that the language is too broad - I am 100% in support of prohibitions on defamatory, misleading or false communications. But it must be recognized that the LC is a political and representative role, and that opinion is part of that. I'm not going to support language that restricts the ability of the LC to operate.

If people don't like my legislative agenda - an agenda I have always been clear about - then they're welcome to run against me next time. But I was elected to strengthen the voice and power of regional WA members, and if that means recommending they vote a certain way sometimes that's what I'll do.

My office is not administrative - it is fundamentally political.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES

***Tsunamy*** · 08-14-2016, 07:32 PM

(08-14-2016, 05:54 PM)Belschaft Wrote:
(08-14-2016, 05:38 PM)Tsunamy Wrote:
(08-14-2016, 04:19 PM)Belschaft Wrote: My problem with "push legislative agendas" is that I was elected to the LC on a platform to do exactly that.

Bel — there's a way to do that without riling up an angry mob to do it. As we've been discussing on Discord, giving good information and allowing where you're presenting both sides of the debate is fine. Hell, it's desirable!

But I don't think the region elected you to give selective information in an attempt to rally people around personal causes. (Not saying you did/would, but again, let's stretch what the next Local Councillor might want to do.) This potential is what I'm trying to fix here.

I agree with you Tsu, which is why I support legislation along these lines. But my concern is that the language is too broad - I am 100% in support of prohibitions on defamatory, misleading or false communications. But it must be recognized that the LC is a political and representative role, and that opinion is part of that. I'm not going to support language that restricts the ability of the LC to operate.

If people don't like my legislative agenda - an agenda I have always been clear about - then they're welcome to run against me next time. But I was elected to strengthen the voice and power of regional WA members, and if that means recommending they vote a certain way sometimes that's what I'll do.

My office is not administrative - it is fundamentally political.

I'm making this argument in an attempt to bring you into the process. You are actively saying that this is a problem and there is something that could be done, but when you say that your role is inherently political without explaining how we can narrow this in scope to help this, it just ends discussion.

All roles here are political, but can be done without causing a riot. If you see — or could possibly see — a situation where you whip up the in-game nations into a frenzy over potential legislation or government action, we have a problem.

If — as I suspect — this is not what you're advocating, then I'll ask again you to help narrowing this down appropriately.

What if we make it so that people aren't both authoring legislation and mass TG-ing support of it?

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

**Belschaft** · 08-15-2016, 09:45 AM

I'm absolutely not proposing that anyone create a frenzy. I am simply arguing that the political representatives of regional WA members should not be prevented from communicating with said regional WA members on political matters.

I'm not sure that would meet the criteria I'm looking for Tsu; if - for example - I author legislation increasing the weighting of the LC block vote, I would view it as an appropriate course of action to inform regional WA members about what the bill does and recommend they vote for it. The LC is elected to act as representative and advocate; we have to be allowed to do that.

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES

***sandaoguo*** · 08-15-2016, 10:17 AM

(08-15-2016, 09:45 AM)Belschaft Wrote: I'm absolutely not proposing that anyone create a frenzy.

You have a long history of doing just this, though. Let's be real here. If you didn't, this wouldn't be such a heightened discussion.

You shouldn't be recommending people vote for anything, if you want in-game polls to carry any weight. All that's doing is treating the LC and in-game polls as your personal power station-- few are going to see it as you doing a public service in furtherance of some lofty goal to increase gameside representation. What you're talking about is more the province of a political party than a government institution.

(This post was last modified: 08-15-2016, 10:18 AM by sandaoguo.)

**Belschaft** · 08-15-2016, 10:20 AM

(08-15-2016, 10:17 AM)sandaoguo Wrote:
(08-15-2016, 09:45 AM)Belschaft Wrote: I'm absolutely not proposing that anyone create a frenzy.

You have a long history of doing just this, though. Let's be real here. If you didn't, this wouldn't be such a heightened discussion.

You shouldn't be recommending people vote for anything, if you want in-game polls to carry any weight. All that's doing is treating the LC and in-game polls as your personal power station-- few are going to see it as you doing a public service in furtherance of some lofty goal to increase gameside representation.

Considering that my position is that I want the LC abolished in favour of direct representation/voting of regional WA members? It won't be much of a personal power station if I get my way, would it?

_{Minister of Media, Subversion and Sandwich Making}
^{Associate Justice of the High Court and Senior Moderator}

PREVIOUS ROLES