I'd also like to point out TNP and how among the cabinet, I took a lead role in actually speaking to our allies while Roavin was ready to end our alliance without talking to their leadership. That's the same problem here - the lack of honest communication as this was a complete blindside to me.  When it comes to TSP, I do the best for the region that I can as a passionate and straight-forward person. I will get to PS2s questions in a bit, need to eat.

(I'll respond to other stuff later, possibly tomorrow, but this is so egregious that I have to speak out immediately, plus this is something that Serres will not see since it's in the Situation Room and not the regular Cabinet Office.)

This is a lie. Yes, you and Glen approached them directly, and I'm thankful for that, but all I did was bring it up to the Cabinet for consideration, since I was approached about it.

Actually, I approached them directly after you presented a very scary option regarding relations with them without talking to any of them at all.  In fact, they were completely surprised at your lack of approach and I can quote DMs from the relevant channels if needed.

I asked Glenn to help because I thought he would be a cooler head, although I could have asked Tsunamy or anyone else that I thought would look at this reasonably. So again, you seem to choose to degrade my contributions because it doesn't suit you to acknowledge them.

And I appeal to the reasonable reader - where did I in any way degrade that you talked to them?

Yes, it was a scary option. No, TSP and TNP hadn't talked at the time. That does not make anything I said less true or your assertion any less of a lie.

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Honestly? Regardless of who did what or who's at fault: if it has seriously come to this maybe you all should be recalled, regardless of the election. I've been aware that there was some tension going on between a couple of you back in the beginning of the term, but I figured in time it'd blow over. If y'all seriously haven't gotten your act together by now, we should recall you at least to prove the point to future cabinets that this kind of borderline-childish behavior won't be tolerated, from anyone.

We've been childish. Me included, and I'm not going to hold back on that. Especially early in the term, Escade and I were going at each other all the time. Recently, I've been trying to hold back on anything that's not strictly necessary - and that's led to me being probably the quietest member of the cabinet. 

I have some questions for the Cabinet.

1. None of you are new players. Prior to the beginning of this term, did any of you have any concerns about your ability to work with other members of this cabinet?

2. At what point did you realise that there were potentially unworkable problems within the cabinet?

3. What steps have you taken as a team in an attempt to solve these problems?

4. Were you all fully aware of the problems within the cabinet, and the potential consequences of these?

1. From the start of the cabinet campaigns (when Escade and I started really having problems) I was concerned about that. I wasn't worried about anyone else though, really. I knew Tim's and my GP/political views weren't exactly the same but that didn't make a difference at all.

2. Not having been in a GCR's executive before (unlike all the other ministers), I didn't have a frame of reference to base the seriousness of the problems on. I was getting worried in the past couple days because of the beyond-normal frequency of arguments but didn't categorize them automatically as "unworkable" or more than situational - just hoping that their piling up wouldn't lead to a complete failure. My naïvete I guess.

3. Not much, really. As a team, the "flash points" (specific times when people are online and the arguments come up in debates) have mostly ended in someone less involved saying "this is not going anywhere, just drop it" or moving to DMs/another channel and then no one actually solves it.

4. I've been told multiple times that there's a lot going on in DMs/backroom channels between other cabinet members that I'm not privy to, so I don't think I can say I was fully aware. I wasn't expecting them to come to this until the past maybe two days when we've had a bunch of behaviour that involved threatening and not just argument.

~ Aumeltopia ~

Raccoons are bandits! First they steal your food . . . and then your heart/identity!

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I have some questions for the Cabinet.

1. None of you are new players. Prior to the beginning of this term, did any of you have any concerns about your ability to work with other members of this cabinet?

2. At what point did you realise that there were potentially unworkable problems within the cabinet?

3. What steps have you taken as a team in an attempt to solve these problems?

4. Were you all fully aware of the problems within the cabinet, and the potential consequences of these?

1. Nope, we had disagreements but for example, I trusted Roavin and spoke to him over DMs about every topic under the sun whether political or mermaids related.  In fact this has been really surprising to say the least. Edit (just saw Somy's point), as other people asked me about it, it was not a love\hate relationship as I saw but like a bickering (even about merburgers) so it didn't feel like a serious issue.  Not everyone is going to be friends but we're able to be civil for the most part. 

2. Unworkable? We were able to do the things that we needed to do as I noted in my earlier posts. Sometimes I was the one who said "We need to get this done now, it's been months." Actually many of the times me prompting people to lay their cards on the table is why things got done. However, everyone contributed and we also didn't always disagree with the same people. Somy and me at least agreed on some issue and disagreed on others.  

3. Honestly, as a team? None really. I think that if I thought it were that bad I would approach the CRS or others to moderate but I think because of three terms under Roavin as Prime Minister, this seemed natural.  He never really said anything in a way that made it seem like a make or break kind of thing. If it was that bad I would have gone for help sooner.  I also think its nice to talk to people before trying to crucify them especially when its such a long relationship. 

4. I actually amn't sure.  I have seen other cabinets where like Belschaft and Glenn or Unibot and everyone else were at odds with one another. Also this is the third term under Roavin and it seems like business as usual.   Perhaps TSP culture has encouraged vigorous debate and discussion that can get heated?  However, what surprises me is how many things we compromised on eventually as a cabinet.  So like even some of the things mentioned in the original post (such as talking points) we discussed and I tried to help by point out the things TSP is regularly attacked on in the NSGP thread. Everyone eventually compromised on a great many things.

Also I'm going to try to avoid the back and forth here, so apologies as that isn't the goal here.

Escade

~ Positions Held in TSP ~
Delegate | Vice Delegate 
Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs
~ The Sparkly One ~

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(This post was last modified: 05-27-2018, 07:55 PM by Escade.)

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Based off of the replies of other cabinet ministers, I have some additional questions specifically for Roavin.

5. The other ministers do not seem to believe that the problems are unworkable. Have you brought up your perceived severity of the problems previously with the cabinet?

6. How often were discussions about these issues held in places that not all cabinet members have access to (such as DMs)? Do you believe that more discussions should have taken place between the entire cabinet?

7. How have the issues in this term compared to any issues in previous terms, particularly concerning Tim and Escade, with whom you have worked with as PM before?

Did some LC, MoRA, CRS stuff in the past. Do a lot of World Census stuff now.

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I am curious whether in the case that all current Cabinet members elect to run and are indeed re-elected to serve, whether each of you would be confident that all existing issues can be solved so as to ensure the next term is not as divisive as is the current one.

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Because honestly, it is nonsensical drama that should have never seen the light of the assembly.

Generally, when issues have been brought up in the past during political campaigns, they were written off as negative attacks just to win an election. I didn’t feel that my words would be heard in the high-stakes context of an election, and South Pacificans would have voted obliviously. These problems have been going on for months, and the past week or so they’ve heightened to the point where I don’t think it’s okay to keep the region in the dark.

Would it be correct to say that the dysfunctionality is why it took so long for Associate Judges and the third Legcomm member to be appointed?

No, I concur with what Tim wrote with one addition: an emergency member is, by design, different from a full member. I still refused to allow myself to be appointed as a full member.

I disagree with this depiction as it I think degrades all the wonderful things the players in question have done in the cabinet this term; whether a solid new treaty, festival with new and old allies, and excellent activity records on our Discord that will improve our stats as well as general image as a great region.  

Emphasis mine. I appeal to the reasonable reader here — I quite explicitly mentioned in the OP that you had been doing "fantastic work".

I am disappointed that this motion is being filed so close to the election. While no one outside Cabinet can say with certainty whether it is merited, the timing of it suggest great political damage to all those involved and that is rather saddening.

Before this thread is passed off as a smear job, I should note that I'm quite conscious that this significantly damages me as well, and I knew this going into it.

At times, I did not see an effort from the Prime Minister to involve the Foreign Ministry until after I took more agressive measures. While the PM is the Head of Government, the Charter makes clear where FA power is invested in, and while I'll admit I acted disrespectfully towards the Prime Minister at times, I felt similarly disrespected. I admit I could have maybe applied a more tactful manner of conflict resolution, but one of my biggest frustrations is when people go behind my back, so I was rather incensed on the topic.

Besides the Lazarus issue pre-Imki-takeover, what else are you referring to?

Roavin is also being far from accurate on some elements. My opposition to Cormac's involvement was not absolute, and it's really disengenious that he is saying that. My opposition was to Cormac being in a leadership role within the Liberation, something I would think is a more than reasonable stance to have given his history both with The South Pacific and across Nationstates. Roavin continuously kept pushing for and defending Cormac, so I did what I could to actually preserve our Coalition's ideals. While Cormac has plenty of experience, he could contribute to the liberation without being leadership, and ended up doing that just fine.

The official version you sent was an outright prohibition on Cormac involvement. In DMs, I asked for some clarification, which with your permission I'd like to paste here verbatim to let our fellow Legislators decide.

The liberation sure as hell wasn't "nearly derailed" due to it.

No, that's not what I said. TSP's involvement nearly was, and I think you and I agree that not having TSP involved in the historical and record-breaking Peacekeeper Agreement would have been quite bad.

Furthermore, Roavin is incorrect about when I was involved, as I knew about the plan prior to the reclamation of the delegacy, and also presented the stance regarding Cormac well in advance of the delegacy being reclaimed.

Yes, you knew beforehand because I had requested releasing some specific related information to the "in"-group. You didn't get involved until the Delegacy takeover, when everybody relevant from the Peacekeeper regions was brought together to discuss how to move forward.

[quote="Tim" pid='171120' dateline='1527462191']If you want to sin me for being at-times inactive, that's fair. It's been a hectic four months, between losing internet for a month, losing power for a bit, rent troubles, and other matters I won't be getting into. I still think we've seen stuff accomplished, and I've been really proud of the work which has been done. I wish I could have had more consistent levels of activity, but I'd rather lapse in activity than lapse in RL.

I don't fault you at all for any of that. When possible and necessary, I picked up the slack and helped out (for example, processing pending ambassador applications). I see it as my duty, as expressed in all three of my PM campaigns, to be the "ultimate deputy" for ministerial absences, and so it would be disingenuous of me to put you on the spot for that. My issue is rather with things like that mythical Monday for which you promised all sorts of things, including things I had deliberately been waiting on, for example.

1. None of you are new players. Prior to the beginning of this term, did any of you have any concerns about your ability to work with other members of this cabinet?

No. I had worked with Escade for 8 months prior to that, and with Tim for over a year in an entirely different region. I knew their strengths and weaknesses (just as, presumably, they are well aware of my strengths and weaknesses).

2. At what point did you realise that there were potentially unworkable problems within the cabinet?

There isn't really one particular point in time I can point to, but rather it's been a dawning realization over the course of months.

3. What steps have you taken as a team in an attempt to solve these problems?

As a team, none really. For the most part, I tried to deal with issues separate from the Cabinet Office to keep that somewhat "pure", and so I have tons of DMs with Escade about various issues and there are several discussions in MoFA HQ as well as Tim DMs. I should have done several things differently months ago, but as always, hindsight is 20/20.

4. Were you all fully aware of the problems within the cabinet, and the potential consequences of these?

No. I don't think anybody has the overarching view I have (which is fine - having that is my job, not theirs). I could have been a bit more upfront about some things, but there wasn't an issue I didn't bring up somewhere.

5. The other ministers do not seem to believe that the problems are unworkable. Have you brought up your perceived severity of the problems previously with the cabinet?

Most likely, we will be working together until the 22nd. I hope we'll be able to somehow maintain ourselves until that time. So I will agree with them that it's not completely unworkable, if dysfunctional.

There isn't a problem expressed here that I didn't discuss at least with the involved individual. I didn't bring up a holistic view as expressed to the OP, as I was usually dealing rather day-to-day. That being said, it would have been met with incredulity anyway, I'm certain of it (based on history).

6. How often were discussions about these issues held in places that not all cabinet members have access to (such as DMs)? Do you believe that more discussions should have taken place between the entire cabinet?

Most of these were in DMs or in more specialized channels. See Answer 3.

7. How have the issues in this term compared to any issues in previous terms, particularly concerning Tim and Escade, with whom you have worked with as PM before?

With regards to Escade, there isn't anything necessarily new, but it has gotten completely out of hand and beyond a point where I can apply logic and reason to defuse a situation.

With regards to Tim, I'm not sure what happened. The previous term went well, I think, but also was generally quieter. This term, the general tone became more aggressive and less serious (not intrinsically bad) to a fault (bad).

I can't elaborate as much as I'd like on both, as there are many things that were said in DMs and VC.

I am curious whether in the case that all current Cabinet members elect to run and are indeed re-elected to serve, whether each of you would be confident that all existing issues can be solved so as to ensure the next term is not as divisive as is the current one.

I sincerely doubt that will happen.

I, for my part, will not stand for reelection as PM, and I may only consider a FA run if there really is no remotely qualified candidate. I've been in 5 of the 6 past Cabinets. Not only do I really need a break, I think the region can use a fresh face or three.

---

And one more note: Notice that Escade keeps saying that I am degrading her or other's contributions to the region. I did not do so, and in fact explicitly praised Escade's work in particular in the original post. I hope South Pacificans recognize this for what it is: a cheap rhetorical trick, nothing more.

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I am curious whether in the case that all current Cabinet members elect to run and are indeed re-elected to serve, whether each of you would be confident that all existing issues can be solved so as to ensure the next term is not as divisive as is the current one.

I don't know who will or won't run as this move has its own goals and repercussions and I'm sure, Roavin, a power player and someone who has described himself as enjoying manipulating things - has an end goal in mind. As I stated before a title has never defined me. I worked for TSP without at title and turned down delegate in my third month because I wasn't ready for it.  If none of the current people involved run in any capacity or through proxies, I would be perfectly fine with a fresh new cabinet without any deep relations to the current cabinet. 

I mean here's the issue - communication.  I looked through my logs and Roavin mentioned wanting to resign from the cabinet and follows up with:
"Roavin-04/15/2018
No,. Because I'm not feeling it
TSP deserves a PM that does, and I'm not in this last term"

He does not communicate anything about his issues with the cabinet in this discussion.  So for anyone to know something was seriously wrong, it had to be communicated in a calm and forthright manner. We've worked under Roavin for three terms now and I personally helped support him in an admin role in this region. Where was his honesty and constructive criticism? Where was his attempt to help us grow? He's been in the cabinet for the majority of being in this region and has set many of the precedents and encouraged many of the behaviors he's recanting here when it suited him. The issues he's bringing up did not make the cabinet dysfunctional and in fact seem to relate to the personal rather than the political. I'd like to specifically know which cabinet projects or issues were derailed since this has really become Roavin's personal issues.

See, I'm not a professional writer. Roavin did trash my writing in his initial post here (and that is part and parcel of the subtle degradation,  you're good at festivals BUT nothing else is what I hear a lot of) but he never once tried to help me really get better.  There are actually other players who helped me write better by walking me through the issues (run-on sentences being one).  I've also cut down on my heavily criticized GIF use but that also is not a dire issue. It's a matter of playstyle.   In this game though attacking someone because they aren't a professional writer, is quite petty and a low blow like the others.

The number of players in this game who've taught me something are countless and I love all of them. They taught me to write better, use better vocabulary, read books I wouldn't otherwise, learn to use Google sheets and tables in docs, even CSS\HTML.  This game is a place I learn every day. I would hate to think that mistakes that we grow from keep us from playing.  If this game was only played be real life politicians instead of students and all manners of people - it would be a different game altogether.

Escade

~ Positions Held in TSP ~
Delegate | Vice Delegate 
Minister of Regional Affairs, | Minister of Foreign Affairs | Minister of Military Affairs
~ The Sparkly One ~

My Pinterest

 

(This post was last modified: 05-28-2018, 12:50 AM by Escade.)

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This whole incident reminds me of this.

Former Delegate of the South Pacific
Posts outside High Court venues should be taken as those of any other legislator.
I do not participate in the regional server, but I am happy to talk through instant messaging or on the forum.

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While I am sad that Roavin will not be running for re-election -- I personally think he had done an admirable job -- I hope the next Cabinet will have revised internal communication procedures. All of this comes across as though it all stems from miscommunication which has domino-ed to an unfortunate lack of understanding.

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I don't know who will or won't run as this move has its own goals an repercussions and I'm sure, Roavin, a power player and someone who has described himself as enjoying manipulating things - has an end goal in mind. 

I already stated my plans. Ideally, I'm not doing anything next term. I'm not sure how that is necessarily nefarious.

Also, where did I say that? Feel free to copy and paste the log.

I mean here's the issue - communication.  I looked through my logs and Roavin mentioned wanting to resign from the cabinet and follows up with:
"Roavin-04/15/2018
No,. Because I'm not feeling it
TSP deserves a PM that does, and I'm not in this last term"

Yep, that's true. You all told me I should stay on, so I did and continued doing the work. I don't regret it, but I won't miss it when it's over.

See, I'm not a professional writer. Roavin did trash my writing in his initial post here (and that is part and parcel of the subtle degradation,  you're good at festivals BUT nothing else is what I hear a lot of) but he never once tried to help me really get better.  There are actually other players who helped me write better by walking me through the issues (run-on sentences being one).  I've also cut down on my heavily criticized GIF use but that also is not a dire issue. It's a matter of playstyle.   In this game though attacking someone because they aren't a professional writer, is quite petty and a low blow like the others.

I'm not a professional writer either. I develop software for a living. I got a C- on my last english course.

All I can say is that this is, once again, a lie and any reasonable person reviewing our DM exchanges in the past year would agree with my assessment.

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