Should I explain it again, or do we quite understand? I don't have 65 deputies. In fact, legally, I only have one.

To suggest that I don't do the work is insane, and very offensive.. I negotiate with other regions to organise events, keep people active, and help senior fellows achieve agendas.

RA structure is similar to the previous FA structure. When I worked in FA, I had contact with a deputy who was communicating with the ambassadors. Then, he has contact with the minister who created policy. Should we split FA into Comms and policymaking? No, because if you do that, you are an idiot. Splitting things into smaller things just won't solve issues.

Also, you haven't applied for fellowship, which, although difficult, makes it hard to explain management structure in a simple way, as you have had no direct experiences of it. (EDIT: to put it more bluntly, you haven't ever been a fellow, to my recollection. You have had the opportunity to apply? How do you know about the MoRA so much to lecture me on how to do my work, and why I'm not doing it well enough?)

With all due respect, Agalaesia, I believe you may be misunderstanding the central tenant of the proponents’ argument.

For all it’s good work, the Ministry of Regional Affairs is at present such a comparatively gigantic organisation that it makes good and proper sense for its departments to be elevated to ministries.

As has been contended, the components which make up the ministry can themselves warrant such an elevation due to what they are expected to oversee — whether it be broadly categorised into cultural affairs, home affairs, media, integration, etc. A decoupling of this kind would not be without comparison as many of our fellow regions have done so. Grouping these important duties within one mega-ministry creates imbalance in cabinet portfolio and I would argue gives the ministry an unnecessarily outsized role.

With respects to your assertion that the former administration of foreign affairs used a decentralised system, I feel it necessary to point out that the mandate of that ministry is not as all-encompassing as regional affairs. Yes, there may have been a communication officer who disseminated information to ambassadors but that role was limited in scope and involved (to the best of my knowledge) posting regional updates in our embassies abroad. It was undeniably not to the level of either engagement or involvement of which is currently expected of our regional communication department.

Furthermore, while I understand and indeed am empathetic to your expressed concern that your own role as minister will be diminished due to these proposed changes, I am of the opinion that any such change will not be made immediately and will take effect come the first of February with the upcoming Cabinet elections. I also would like to stress that this discussion is not, as you have implied, a criticism of your managerial style nor of the ministry in general. I do not, however, believe it is at all appropriate to denigrate others’ opinion because they are not presently in your ministry; especially of Tsunamy, who has served in a myriad of government positions and whose knowledge and experience of government functions very well exceed all of us currently in this discussion.

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Let me be clear and blunt here:

Once again, we are trying to solve the problem of inactivity here, however, creating more ministries will not magically solve the problem. It will just cause extra layers of bureaucracy, and will make the TSP cabinet harder to navigate. The only way we can create activity is by finding a larger, motivated workforce, which is difficult. Many new people (not just in RA, but in TSP in general) drop out due to the fact that they can't spend their lives on an online game.

I think that the RA portfolio is large, but, I don't understand what a split would solve.

Also, some people don't seem to understand how the MoRA leadership structure works, so I'll explain it now, just so that it is clear, and will not tarnish further debate:

Every human who joins the MoRA becomes a fellow. This is the junior tier. People here write articles, create artwork, help with event organisation etc.

Some humans become Senior Fellows. They lead departments and projects. If you join, your work will be checked by a senior fellow, and the senior fellows completed project will occasionally be checked by the minister. There are only two superiors of a fellow: the senior fellow of the department they work in and the Minister.

Advisors advise the minister, and the deputy typically the minister's most senior advisor, and is also permitted into the cabinet channel, so they are also a cabinet advisor.

It's simple, and almost all ministries have two layers of management. When I worked in FA, I had direct contact with a deputy, who then was in direct contact with the minister.

All right. I tried to play this off on Discord, but, to be blunt — this is eff'd. Especially, because, unless you're just delayed in posting this, it sounds like others have raised the issue after I did.

I'm sorry, every Ministry doesn't need to have two layers of bureaucracy. In fact, they *shouldn't* have two layers of bureaucracy! Think of all of the time the Minister (or deputy) could spend doing things rather than checking the work of others! Not to mention, that doesn't want to get people involved because it doesn't feel like anything gets done as they wait for their respective deputy to respond. Rather than organizing others to do it, lets just ... do it.

In short: if RA has too many parts to be sufficiently run by a Minister and a (single) deputy, then it is clearly too big.

Again, I'm on the side that we shouldn't be expanding the Cabinet with the hope of spurring more activity. But, the ongoing defense that RA needs to have 65 deputies with a byzantine structure underneath in it and would work just fine we if just found more active people isn't passing the smell test here. 

Should I explain it again, or do we quite understand? I don't have 65 deputies. In fact, legally, I only have one.

To suggest that I don't do the work is insane, and very offensive.. I negotiate with other regions to organise events, keep people active, and help senior fellows achieve agendas.

RA structure is similar to the previous FA structure. When I worked in FA, I had contact with a deputy who was communicating with the ambassadors. Then, he has contact with the minister who created policy. Should we split FA into Comms and policymaking? No, because if you do that, you are an idiot. Splitting things into smaller things just won't solve issues.

Also, you haven't applied for fellowship, which, although difficult, makes it hard to explain management structure in a simple way, as you have had no direct experiences of it. (EDIT: to put it more bluntly, you haven't ever been a fellow, to my recollection. You have had the opportunity to apply? How do you know about the MoRA so much to lecture me on how to do my work, and why I'm not doing it well enough?) 

I don't need you to explain, Aga. I understand the dilemma quite fine.

I didn't say you're not working; I'm saying that instead of "helping the senior fellows achieve agendas" you could put your time to more productive or community-facing uses. Having a sprawling bureaucracy was never the intention of any of the Cabinet positions and dedicating time to manage it isn't a great use of our NS time. (Frankly, the idea that FA needed to have a deputy to communicate with ambassadors itself is ridiculous and not needed considering we had ... how many ambassadors?)

As I've said before, this isn't personal. I'm offering advice based on my previous experience and understanding of what's realistic to expect from people. But really, what do I know about how to run a region? 

Finally, Aga, I don't work for you — and after the way you've conducted yourself during this discussion, frankly wouldn't work for you. Sorry I haven't found a moment to become a fellow, I've been busy hosting a forum, a Discord channel, am a member of the CRS and try to keep a somewhat active profile in-game while having a good deal of RL commitments.

In any case, if you're committed to collecting a variety of disparate functions so the Ministry of Regional Affairs can lay claim to every part of the region, be my guest.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

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As I see it, most (though not all) of the people arguing for a split have never put significant time into the MoRA to know how its been setup to function. While I do agree that the MoRA's portfolio is big, I think it is doable.

The way Aggie explains the structure is only partly correct. The Advisory council was set up in such a way that it is what should be running the "day-to-day" ministry - running the menial things like the coco press and engaging RP and in-game. This leaves the Minister to run and do whatever pet-projects they had in their campaign. This was supposed to let the Minister look like a god for completing everything (or most of what) they campaigned on while also keeping the ministry as a whole moving.

Like Viet said, the problem right now isnt the size of the ministry, its the lack of hands willing to get dirty. When Kringle or Aggie asks who is around to write an article for the Coco Press, there's crickets. When a second ping goes out, one or two people respond with "cant right now" (which is perfectly fine), but it still leaves no one to do the work. And this isnt just the issue with Aggies term, here. Its the reason that last term went from 60 to 0. When I asked for help to work in a specific project, there was never anyone to help.

And splitting the ministry into 2 (or 3 or 4 or 20) isnt going to make anything better.

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The way Aggie explains the structure is only partly correct. The Advisory council was set up in such a way that it is what should be running the "day-to-day" ministry - running the menial things like the coco press and engaging RP and in-game. This leaves the Minister to run and do whatever pet-projects they had in their campaign. This was supposed to let the Minister look like a god for completing everything (or most of what) they campaigned on while also keeping the ministry as a whole moving.

OMG — am I having a brain hemorrhage here? Why is there an advisory council? What the hell are we talking about here?

I haven't been shy about the fact that I haven't participated in the ministry. But, this seems to solidify my point: We need to have an unelected "advisory board" to run the ministry while the minister goes out to do pet projects? This is normal? This is how we honestly think a branch of this fictional government should run? 

Look: I wasn't planning to respond after my last post and I'm going to fully see myself out of this conversation after this post. But, it seems to my small mind that when we need an advisory board to run a ministry it's clearly too big. Do with that what you will.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

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The way Aggie explains the structure is only partly correct. The Advisory council was set up in such a way that it is what should be running the "day-to-day" ministry - running the menial things like the coco press and engaging RP and in-game. This leaves the Minister to run and do whatever pet-projects they had in their campaign. This was supposed to let the Minister look like a god for completing everything (or most of what) they campaigned on while also keeping the ministry as a whole moving.

OMG — am I having a brain hemorrhage here? Why is there an advisory council? What the hell are we talking about here?

I haven't been shy about the fact that I haven't participated in the ministry. But, this seems to solidify my point: We need to have an unelected "advisory board" to run the ministry while the minister goes out to do pet projects? This is normal? This is how we honestly think a branch of this fictional government should run? 

Look: I wasn't planning to respond after my last post and I'm going to fully see myself out of this conversation after this post. But, it seems to my small mind that when we need an advisory board to run a ministry it's clearly too big. Do with that what you will.

Firstly, if you are having a brain haemorrhage, please see a medical professional. It is difficult to argue with people who are dead, and it is a serious condition to joke about, or use lightly in everyday conversation.

You can see some more info about haemorrhages on the NHS website:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/subarachnoid-haemorrhage/

All ministries have advisors. FA has three advisors, MA has a few too. If it's the terminology that irritated you, it can be changed to RA Advisor, which will make it sounds less like a board. FA also has something that was termed an advisory council. If it's the branding that is the issue, we can rename it to something MoRA progressive (geddit?). The advisory council advised me. All ministers have advisors, I just have very many. Last term, there was only one. The purpose of the advisors have changed, so, now, all they do is advise the minister.

You do a lot of work Tsu, but what irritates me is that I know what I'm talking about, and, if you think that I don't know anything, then Kris does, and he's only been a fellow for six years. The thing is, you do things, but it is truly bizzare when you say that you wish to run for a media minister despite not being in the media department. Although no one expects you to be a fellow, I'm of the opinion that, if one wishes to make major changes to the structure of the Ministry, one should be involved in the ministry that is being changed.

Also, a split won't solve the underlying issues, which is inacitivty. The ministry has recently been overhauled, and the current model is based on a good few years of experience. We've had many models, and I know that this one works best.

I think the other problem, aside from inactivity, is that our contacts with other institutions are frayed. For example: we contacted the previous LC about some proposals that no longer have any relevance. We were ignored.

Finally, I will be setting up a committee on improving the Ministry of Regional Affairs. This will be a convention to look at what needs improvement, and how we can improve it. I cannot in good conscience remain stagnant, so, this is what we will be setting up.

Aga/Eunopiar

Mostly does boring things.

(This post was last modified: 12-23-2019, 06:05 PM by Aga.)

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As I see it, most (though not all) of the people arguing for a split have never put significant time into the MoRA to know how its been setup to function. While I do agree that the MoRA's portfolio is big, I think it is doable.

The way Aggie explains the structure is only partly correct. The Advisory council was set up in such a way that it is what should be running the "day-to-day" ministry - running the menial things like the coco press and engaging RP and in-game. This leaves the Minister to run and do whatever pet-projects they had in their campaign. This was supposed to let the Minister look like a god for completing everything (or most of what) they campaigned on while also keeping the ministry as a whole moving.

Like Viet said, the problem right now isnt the size of the ministry, its the lack of hands willing to get dirty. When Kringle or Aggie asks who is around to write an article for the Coco Press, there's crickets. When a second ping goes out, one or two people respond with "cant right now" (which is perfectly fine), but it still leaves no one to do the work. And this isnt just the issue with Aggies term, here. Its the reason that last term went from 60 to 0. When I asked for help to work in a specific project, there was never anyone to help.

And splitting the ministry into 2 (or 3 or 4 or 20) isnt going to make anything better.

This is largely my feelings on the matter. This whole discussion conflates the issues and assigns blame to the wrong source.

Yes, MoRA does a lot of things, and yes, MoRA has been struggling to get its work done. But the former does not inherently mean the latter in this case. At present, MoRA (both the minister and ministry itself) are not overworked. If anything, it's the opposite. Nothing's getting done because nothing is being done, and that's not just from this term.

If anything, splitting the Ministry will only make it worse since you'll now have multiple people fighting each other and all trying to fix this same problem. With fewer resources too, since it will be spread more thinly.
 

The way Aggie explains the structure is only partly correct. The Advisory council was set up in such a way that it is what should be running the "day-to-day" ministry - running the menial things like the coco press and engaging RP and in-game. This leaves the Minister to run and do whatever pet-projects they had in their campaign. This was supposed to let the Minister look like a god for completing everything (or most of what) they campaigned on while also keeping the ministry as a whole moving.

OMG — am I having a brain hemorrhage here? Why is there an advisory council? What the hell are we talking about here?

I haven't been shy about the fact that I haven't participated in the ministry. But, this seems to solidify my point: We need to have an unelected "advisory board" to run the ministry while the minister goes out to do pet projects? This is normal? This is how we honestly think a branch of this fictional government should run? 

Look: I wasn't planning to respond after my last post and I'm going to fully see myself out of this conversation after this post. But, it seems to my small mind that when we need an advisory board to run a ministry it's clearly too big. Do with that what you will. 

The Advisory Council exists for a long list of reasons. To name a couple of main ones:

1. There's too much for one Minister to manage on there own. That's not to say there's too much for the Minister to handle, just that having one person try to manage a list of projects singlehandedly is unreasonable. The AC can serve as project leads, department heads, etc. In this regard, they're basically a replacement for deputies.
   
2. Institutional memory. MoRA does tend to have a lot of less experienced people take the reigns. The Advisory Council theoretically serves as a more permanent institutional memory, composed of a team of individuals who are well experienced in RA that can help the Minister. A council that can advise the Minister, if you will. Before the AC there was a tendency to essentially restart the entire ministry from scratch every time we had a new minister come in.
   

In terms of "normal", well it's basically another element to the fictional bureaucracy of our fictional government agency. It's like with real-world government ministries. There are the politicians at the top you elect, but there's also the more permanent bureaucrats just below them. Experts in the field that handle many of the operations while the politicians handle the more political agenda stuff.

Even in TSP, it's not unprecedented. The General Corps is essentially the same thing, just codified in law. (I did run a campaign on codifying it, but the election results seemed to reject that notion.)

Reply

Finally, Aga, I don't work for you — and after the way you've conducted yourself during this discussion, frankly wouldn't work for you.

Just saw this comment - it is important to make the distinction between working for me and the ministry. I would hope that all of my fellows are invested in the success of the ministry, and work for the ministry. They do not work for a specific individual, and it is ridiculous for one to suggest that they do.

I don't know, I just feel slightly miffed and offended by the torrent of ridiculous comments that I've had to deal with. To be frank, I'm not going to last long here anyway, so, even if you did join the MoRA, you wouldn't be working for a ministry run by me for particularly long.

To be frank, we are wasting our time attacking each other about superfluous changes when we could be having meaningful discussion about the current state of the MoRA and how it can be improved.

So far, it looks like a huge majority of my advisors are against the split, and some have been in RA for years. It won't solve anything, and, if anything, it will just create a cabinet imbalance, with three RA departments, but no equal FA or MA representation.Then again, what should I know about RA? I'm just an elected minister for RA after all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Aga/Eunopiar

Mostly does boring things.

(This post was last modified: 12-24-2019, 06:20 AM by Aga.)

Reply

if anything, it will just create a cabinet imbalance, with six RA departments, but no equal FA or MA representation

Without addressing the majority of your post, I'd like to comment on this one piece specifically: why is such an "imbalance" a bad thing? I'd say that actually what we have right now is the imbalanced situation, with an oversized representation of FA and MA compared to the services they provide to the region. If you think about what goes on in an average day of TSP, a lot more of it happens in the MoRA than in the MoFA or MoMA.

MoRA, MoFA, and MoMA are not the Three Holy Equal Pillars of the Cabinet. They're just superficial categories that we decided on.

I'm also not sure where you got the idea of there being six RA departments. The most I've heard suggested is three.

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Reply

if anything, it will just create a cabinet imbalance, with six RA departments, but no equal FA or MA representation

Without addressing the majority of your post, I'd like to comment on this one piece specifically: why is such an "imbalance" a bad thing? I'd say that actually what we have right now is the imbalanced situation, with an oversized representation of FA and MA compared to the services they provide to the region. If you think about what goes on in an average day of TSP, a lot more of it happens in the MoRA than in the MoFA or MoMA.

MoRA, MoFA, and MoMA are not the Three Holy Equal Pillars of the Cabinet. They're just superficial categories that we decided on.

I'm also not sure where you got the idea of there being six RA departments. The most I've heard suggested is three.

Apologies for the typo. Duly edited.

Aga/Eunopiar

Mostly does boring things.

Reply

This is against my better judgement but ...

You do a lot of work Tsu, but what irritates me is that I know what I'm talking about, and, if you think that I don't know anything, then Kris does, and he's only been a fellow for six years. The thing is, you do things, but it is truly bizzare when you say that you wish to run for a media minister despite not being in the media department. Although no one expects you to be a fellow, I'm of the opinion that, if one wishes to make major changes to the structure of the Ministry, one should be involved in the ministry that is being changed.

It was a comment made in passing, not something I'm angling toward. I started my NS career working for the SPIN and I work in journalism IRL. It would be something natural for me to do and something I would consider rather than run for MoRA which has a huge portfolio, most of which I don't care about.
 

The Advisory Council exists for a long list of reasons. To name a couple of main ones:

1. There's too much for one Minister to manage on there own. That's not to say there's too much for the Minister to handle, just that having one person try to manage a list of projects singlehandedly is unreasonable. The AC can serve as project leads, department heads, etc. In this regard, they're basically a replacement for deputies.
   
2. Institutional memory. MoRA does tend to have a lot of less experienced people take the reigns. The Advisory Council theoretically serves as a more permanent institutional memory, composed of a team of individuals who are well experienced in RA that can help the Minister. A council that can advise the Minister, if you will. Before the AC there was a tendency to essentially restart the entire ministry from scratch every time we had a new minister come in.
   

In terms of "normal", well it's basically another element to the fictional bureaucracy of our fictional government agency. It's like with real-world government ministries. There are the politicians at the top you elect, but there's also the more permanent bureaucrats just below them. Experts in the field that handle many of the operations while the politicians handle the more political agenda stuff.

Far — I'm not questioning what the Advisory Board does. I'm aware we have one, but I'm somewhat flabbergasted by my argument ("MoRA is unruly") being answered by ("No, we have a whole bureaucracy here to run things.") The former literally proves the point I've been trying to make.
 

I don't know, I just feel slightly miffed and offended by the torrent of ridiculous comments that I've had to deal with. To be frank, I'm not going to last long here anyway, so, even if you did join the MoRA, you wouldn't be working for a ministry run by me for particularly long.

To be frank, we are wasting our time attacking each other about superfluous changes when we could be having meaningful discussion about the current state of the MoRA and how it can be improved.

Yes, I understand the difference between working for you and working for the ministry. However, I don't appreciate the repeated attacks that I don't know in the RA so I have no standing to talk. I'll also point out that I have repeatedly said this isn't personal — I'm literally talking about the structure of things not what any one person is being here. As such, the personal tone of why *I'm* not swooping in to save a ministry is misguided and uneven because I'm not singling you or anyone out for their actions.

-tsunamy
[forum admin]

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